CSM Meeting Minutes 5.006 raw log

Meeting took place on Sat 14th Aug 2010

[ 17:02:23 ] Mynxee > ==================================CSM MEETING 006 CALLED TO ORDER==================================
[ 17:02:29 ] Mynxee > roll call, x up if present
[ 17:02:32 ] Dierdra Vaal > x
[ 17:02:36 ] Trebor Daehdoow > x
[ 17:02:41 ] T'Amber > X Still awake :}
[ 17:02:47 ] TeaDaze > x
[ 17:03:17 ] Mynxee > *taps fingers impatiently*
[ 17:03:26 ] Meissa Anunthiel > x
[ 17:04:03 ] Sokratesz > x
[ 17:04:21 ] Mynxee > alright that's a quorum.
[ 17:04:29 ] TeaDaze > Korvin afk it seems
[ 17:04:35 ] Mynxee > seems so.
[ 17:04:41 ] Mynxee > some reminders:
[ 17:04:58 ] Mynxee > 1) If you are not here and participating in the discussion for an issue from the start of the discussion, you don't vote.
[ 17:05:12 ] T'Amber > :)
[ 17:05:19 ] Mynxee > 2) if you fail to respond for 1 minute to questions, etc. you'll be assumed to be afk
[ 17:05:42 ] Mynxee > 3) I will call on speakers, try to "!" when you want to talk please
[ 17:05:46 ] Mynxee > anything else?
[ 17:06:06 ] Mynxee > ok
[ 17:06:14 ] Mynxee > Issues then
[ 17:06:32 ] Mynxee > Trebor presents Modify or Remove Learning Skills
[ 17:06:35 ] Mynxee > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modify_or_Remove_Learning_Skills_%28CSM%29
[ 17:06:39 ] Mynxee > Trebor, you have the floor.
[ 17:07:24 ] Trebor Daehdoow > This one is a bit controversial, but I think it's important for the CSM to consider it and in particular to have some recommendations on record if CCP decides they want to do this.
[ 17:07:36 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:07:43 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:07:45 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:07:52 ] Trebor Daehdoow > That is why I'm raising it. My personal belief is that learning skills hinder retention, but that's CCP's call. [end]
[ 17:08:09 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:08:27 ] Sokratesz > CCP has prviously statesd that it was 'a mistake' to introduce them, and I agree with them on that. Retention, needless delays for new players to get 'up to speed' and generally no added value other than time sink.
[ 17:08:41 ] Sokratesz > So I agree with any measure taken to reduce their influence or altogether remove them.  end
[ 17:08:48 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:08:56 ] Meissa Anunthiel > The reason it's perceived as controversial is because of a perceived injustice between those who had to learn it (and thus devoted SPs to it) and those who didn't.
[ 17:09:13 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:09:48 ] Meissa Anunthiel > The reason we want it done is because it creates an stupid barrier for new players who HAVE to learn it to be able to play, this is extremely important and as such, the potential perceived harm to vets shouldn't be taken into account, except to mini
[ 17:10:04 ] Meissa Anunthiel > minimize the unfairness in the resolution.
[ 17:10:16 ] Meissa Anunthiel > But even if it's "unfair", it should be done. [/end]
[ 17:10:23 ] Mynxee > dierdra go
[ 17:10:27 ] Dierdra Vaal > atm I wonder ahout the part under solution -> modifying learning skills. You propose to reduce the prerequisite of adv. skills... as well as give all new pilots both basic and advanced learning skills. I wonder what justifies this choice? ....(cont)
[ 17:10:46 ] Dierdra Vaal > ...why give people all the skills AND lower the required skill level? it seems redundant. end
[ 17:10:56 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 17:11:09 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Meissa, both of the concepts in the proposal involve refunding the skillpoints, so no problem for older players.
[ 17:11:11 ] Korvin > im here, just xed the wrong chat lol
[ 17:11:18 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:12:04 ] Mynxee > ok Korvin.
[ 17:12:25 ] Trebor Daehdoow > DV, the reason for the level 3 change is to be logically consistent - if you give everyone level 3 in everything, then having advanced skills which require level 4 is a bit weird.  But it could be done 4/2 I suppose.
[ 17:12:53 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Quite frankly, the second option, just dumping, is my preference but I felt there should be an alternative that is easier to implement. [end]
[ 17:13:05 ] Dierdra Vaal > yes but why not give everyone skills to level 4
[ 17:13:20 ] Mynxee > meissa
[ 17:13:22 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Why refund the SPs, people do have the skills. Just give the skills to the others as well.
[ 17:13:26 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Historically, new characters have started with SPs. Nobody complained. It's been changed over time to boost learning speed.
[ 17:13:34 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Solution: give all characters all learning skills to 5 for free. Decrease the length of the learning speed bonus. End of story. [/end]
[ 17:13:44 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:13:47 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:13:47 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:13:49 ] Mynxee > dierdra
[ 17:13:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > I agree with meissa
[ 17:13:57 ] Dierdra Vaal > (give a moment to type)
[ 17:14:08 ] Korvin > !
[ 17:14:11 ] Dierdra Vaal > if you REMOVE the learning skills, yes - SP should be awarded
[ 17:14:35 ] Dierdra Vaal > but if you simply award the learning skills (to a certain level) to new characters, you dont need to give bonus SP to existing characters
[ 17:14:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > at one point character starting SP got increased to 900,000 and no bonus SP was given.
[ 17:15:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > I think the proposal should be amended to remove the bonus SP in cases where learning skills are not removed from the game
[ 17:15:18 ] Mynxee > (that's what it was when i started playing)
[ 17:15:18 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:15:34 ] Mynxee > is sok next?
[ 17:15:38 ] Sokratesz > Why not just remove them and refund the SP for those who trained them? giving everyone them to lvl 5 would be stupid and nonsensical.   end
[ 17:15:43 ] Sokratesz > i think i was yes :P
[ 17:15:51 ] Korvin > dont see why learning skills should be removed, you dont have to learn them at the start, and you actually pay for your learning skills with the higher clone price,
[ 17:15:53 ] Mynxee > trebor
[ 17:15:56 ] Trebor Daehdoow > DV, I can see your point. My reasoning was that it would make the proposal more broadly acceptable to the players, especially the newer players who have just finished training the skills.
[ 17:16:01 ] Vuk Lau > sorry for being late
[ 17:16:01 ] Mynxee > korvin wait until i call
[ 17:16:06 ] Korvin > oops, fail pretyping, sorry :D
[ 17:16:15 ] Mynxee > welcome to the party vuk.
[ 17:16:30 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:16:40 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:16:40 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Some poor newb who just trained learning skills is going to be pissed that he got screwed over. Since CCP can aware skillpoints, it seems reasonable to avoid that pitfall. [end]
[ 17:16:50 ] Mynxee > korvin continue
[ 17:16:57 ] Korvin > Korvin > dont see why learning skills should be removed, you dont have to learn them at the start, and you actually pay for your learning skills with the higher clone price,
[ 17:17:09 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:17:29 ] Korvin > besides, the reasonable thing is too train 1 profession, and than thain the learning skills
[ 17:17:45 ] Korvin > so new players dont actually have to wait them to start playing
[ 17:17:49 ] Dierdra Vaal > (actually scratch my !)
[ 17:17:56 ] Mynxee > (kk)
[ 17:18:01 ] Korvin > [end]
[ 17:18:07 ] Mynxee > meissa
[ 17:18:11 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Is it really so unreasonable to give new players 1.5 mil worth of SP + some extra (as more speed)? I don't think so. People keep complaining that in order to be able to contribute to anything, mining, PvEing, PvPing, people have to wait 2 to 6 months.
[ 17:18:18 ] Meissa Anunthiel > The gap between "older" players will still be there, this just makes it easier for newer players to meaningfully participate. For the record, CCP were mostly agreeable with changes to it during CSM 3, they were just unsure how to go about with it.
[ 17:18:23 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 17:18:31 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 17:18:33 ] Vuk Lau > hows learning skills related to clone price? @Korvin
[ 17:18:45 ] Vuk Lau > Also I dont have problem with learning skills
[ 17:18:46 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (it changes the amount of SP you have)
[ 17:18:50 ] Vuk Lau > you dont need to train them
[ 17:18:55 ] Korvin > yep
[ 17:18:58 ] Vuk Lau > and CCP gradualy boosted them
[ 17:19:04 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:19:05 ] Korvin > but you will pay if you decide to train them
[ 17:19:09 ] Korvin > thats fare
[ 17:19:20 ] Vuk Lau > 1st by removing prereqs for advanced from basic V to basic V
[ 17:19:30 ] Vuk Lau > then granting new players faster training
[ 17:19:35 ] Vuk Lau > I am maybe
[ 17:19:44 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:20:04 ] Vuk Lau > for giving new players few more hundred k's of SP to distribute at the start, but I am all for keeping them ingame
[ 17:20:05 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:20:13 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:20:16 ] Sokratesz > i disagree there. ytou dont 'need' to train them, but in order to stay competitive you pretty much have to any way. its like saying you dont need a car to go 50 miles, but its a hell of a lot more convenient than a bicycle especially is whoever gets
[ 17:20:17 ] Vuk Lau > basic V to basic IV - sorry
[ 17:20:23 ] Sokratesz > there first gets a killmail [end]
[ 17:20:37 ] Mynxee > meissa
[ 17:20:44 ] Meissa Anunthiel > The point, Vuk, is that learning skills are things to train initially that don't give you anything by themselves. We'd rather have people train things like gunnery, or ships or something that they can directly use. Otherwise it's difficult for
[ 17:20:45 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:21:11 ] Meissa Anunthiel > people who want to play, but have to go through that or they'll be handicapping themselves long term for short term advantage [/end]
[ 17:21:23 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 17:21:26 ] Korvin > !
[ 17:21:34 ] Vuk Lau > Sok, your relation is extremelly blatant and stupid. @Meissa, but you dont need to train them at a start.
[ 17:21:39 ] Vuk Lau > f.e.
[ 17:21:43 ] Vuk Lau > when I started
[ 17:21:54 ] Vuk Lau > I spent 1st month training skills for hauling and pvp frigs
[ 17:22:03 ] Vuk Lau > then trained mostly learning skills
[ 17:22:07 ] Vuk Lau > but now when I make new char
[ 17:22:18 ] Vuk Lau > I dont train learning skills for the 1st 2-3 months
[ 17:22:21 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:22:26 ] Vuk Lau > if u remove learning skills
[ 17:22:32 ] Sokratesz > nvm
[ 17:22:32 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:22:34 ] Vuk Lau > ppl will just train stuff slower
[ 17:22:43 ] Vuk Lau > without possibility to train stuff faster
[ 17:22:54 ] Vuk Lau > they DONT NEED to train learning skill at the start
[ 17:22:57 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:22:58 ] Meissa Anunthiel > ([17:13:33] Meissa Anunthiel > Solution: give all characters all learning skills to 5 for free. Decrease the length of the learning speed bonus. End of story. [/end])
[ 17:22:59 ] Vuk Lau > its their choice
[ 17:23:04 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (and stratch my !)
[ 17:23:17 ] Vuk Lau > ok Meissa
[ 17:23:17 ] Mynxee > (kK)
[ 17:23:20 ] Vuk Lau > remove learning skills
[ 17:23:29 ] Vuk Lau > but then why not giving NEW learni ng skills for the guys who wants them
[ 17:23:31 ] Vuk Lau > ?
[ 17:23:36 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:23:37 ] Vuk Lau > and then we are in endless cycle
[ 17:23:45 ] Vuk Lau > Meissa reply
[ 17:23:47 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:23:52 ] Meissa Anunthiel > because learning skills do not provide anything in and off themselves.
[ 17:23:56 ] Vuk Lau > they do
[ 17:23:59 ] Vuk Lau > faster training
[ 17:24:13 ] Vuk Lau > if I can spend 1 month training learning skills
[ 17:24:23 ] Vuk Lau > then In 6 months I can train more then you can
[ 17:24:28 ] Vuk Lau > therefore in the long run I win
[ 17:24:39 ] Mynxee > (I know we have korvin, treb, meissa, and dv lined up next, guys)
[ 17:24:40 ] Vuk Lau > you are all coming from old school
[ 17:24:57 ] Vuk Lau > when everyone were talking to you train learning skills at the start
[ 17:25:12 ] Vuk Lau > f.e. I have advanced learning skills to 5 on 90% of my characters?
[ 17:25:26 ] Vuk Lau > ppl were laughing to me cause they pay off after 3years
[ 17:25:28 ] Vuk Lau > guess what
[ 17:25:32 ] Vuk Lau > I am playing the game for 6
[ 17:25:40 ] Vuk Lau > anyway there is huge queue
[ 17:25:41 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:25:46 ] Mynxee > krovin
[ 17:25:49 ] Korvin > starter professions dont need much time to train now, even without the learning skills, so this is the choice, every new player have. the choices we can make - is what makes eve an interestion game.
[ 17:25:51 ] Mynxee > *korvin, sorry
[ 17:26:09 ] Korvin > besides, new players have their training time boosted at the start
[ 17:26:19 ] Korvin > so they train faster anyway
[ 17:26:22 ] Korvin > [end]
[ 17:26:27 ] Mynxee > trebor
[ 17:26:29 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Vuk, if you read the remove learning skills sub-proposal, it renormalizes skill points so that training rates of max'd characters do not change. While I agree with you that learning skills add an element of complexity, the question *for CCP* is whether
[ 17:27:31 ] Trebor Daehdoow > they are worth the cost of potential reduced retention of noobs. CCP has already indicated that they sorta would like to get rid of these skills, and now, with the skillpoint bonus system they used at the summit, they have a
[ 17:27:31 ] Vuk Lau > Add a new reward for completing the NPE and each of the profession tutorials - a small pool of bonus skillpoints. Tweak the tutorials so that they guide new players into using these bonus skillpoints to ensure that they don't have to wait to explore ea
[ 17:27:38 ] Vuk Lau > I am for this all the way f.e.
[ 17:27:56 ] Vuk Lau > "they sorta would"
[ 17:27:57 ] Mynxee > vuk, you're speaking out of turn.
[ 17:28:01 ] Vuk Lau > sorry
[ 17:28:17 ] Trebor Daehdoow > mechanism for compensation. So IMHO it is likely that they will do something. Our job as representatives of the players should be to be proactive and get the players the best deal possible.
[ 17:28:17 ] Mynxee > /emote spanks vuk and asks trebor to continue.
[ 17:28:32 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:28:46 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:28:58 ] Trebor Daehdoow > That is the real point of this proposal, to get something on the table such that if they don't do it in a way that is fair to the existing player base, they'll have some explaining to do. [end]
[ 17:29:02 ] Mynxee > meissa
[ 17:29:03 ] Meissa Anunthiel > The objective is to help new players participate more meaningfully to the game faster. And clever people follow Vuk's route (train all learning earlier). But at the same time that means they can't do much for the first few months, and that sucks a lot.
[ 17:29:08 ] Meissa Anunthiel > My question is: why do you want to put people through the stupidity of having to spend time doing nothing when they start the game. Is it some form of hazing everyone had to go through? I don't get it
[ 17:29:15 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Older players would still have more SPs than newer characters. So what's the problem?[/end]
[ 17:29:21 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:29:28 ] Dierdra Vaal > Instead of argueing about the details, may I suggest that trebor adds a list of items ANY solution should keep in mind: 1) skills should NOT train slower than they do now, 2) if skills are removed from the game, SP needs to be reimbursed.
[ 17:29:35 ] Dierdra Vaal > CCP will most likely come up with their own solution anyway, but this way we can at least point out a few aspects that we think are important. That also allows us to stop argueing about the details and vote on this :) [end]
[ 17:29:42 ] Mynxee > teadaze go
[ 17:29:52 ] TeaDaze > I'm torn on this issue. On the one hand there is a solid arguement that it adds to the cliff that new chars have to deal with. On the other hand eve is a game that rewards specialisation (1% here, 3% there) and so I'm not convinced yet that removing
[ 17:30:28 ] TeaDaze > them is the best action. Also I'm sure loads of people would love to dump the 2+ million SP from learning skills into new things, but again that rewards vets over new players
[ 17:30:45 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:30:47 ] TeaDaze > So that has the wrong effect really [end]
[ 17:31:07 ] Mynxee > I could support any reasonable option that helps get new players up to speed and yet doesn't shaft older playeers that invested in Learning skills.
[ 17:31:07 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:31:12 ] Mynxee > end. Vuk go
[ 17:31:28 ] Korvin > !
[ 17:31:32 ] Vuk Lau > @Meissa problem is that newer players will not have ability to learn things faster
[ 17:31:35 ] Vuk Lau > new*
[ 17:31:45 ] Meissa Anunthiel > they will with +10 to all stats
[ 17:32:21 ] Vuk Lau > so what about old players who invested 4 months of training
[ 17:32:25 ] Vuk Lau > into them
[ 17:32:32 ] Vuk Lau > anyway
[ 17:32:32 ] Meissa Anunthiel > they still have the SP
[ 17:32:41 ] Vuk Lau > I am all for keeping learning skills
[ 17:32:51 ] Vuk Lau > but I am also open for improving NPE
[ 17:33:00 ] Meissa Anunthiel > they started earlier and got the benfit of them for longer, you're saying they feel threatened, with their 70-100 mil SP by people who have 2?
[ 17:33:23 ] Mynxee > meissa ... since you're speaking now...somewhat out of turn, does this negate your earlier ! ?
[ 17:33:24 ] Vuk Lau > as mentioned by providing new players SP pool after finishing tutorial or something similar
[ 17:33:46 ] Mynxee > (i realize we're having dialog so no biggie, just trying to track properly who to call next)
[ 17:33:47 ] Vuk Lau > vrw just for the record I am ok with others discussing stuff during my !
[ 17:33:48 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (sorry mynxee, it doesn't, I'm answering to vuk directly)
[ 17:33:57 ] Vuk Lau > I am ok with it
[ 17:33:58 ] Mynxee > (ok)
[ 17:34:01 ] Trebor Daehdoow > @Vuk - note that in both proposals, whatever benefit the new players get is also given to the old players who trained, via a skillpoint grant.
[ 17:34:01 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:34:10 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:34:12 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:34:12 ] Vuk Lau > i dont want skillpoint grant
[ 17:34:15 ] Meissa Anunthiel > for the record, I'm totally against giving people free SP. Just give everyone the thing, or remove the skills and give everyone +10 to all starting skils, but don't reimburse.
[ 17:34:35 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 17:34:38 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:34:40 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:34:45 ] Sokratesz > @ TD from earlier: I think it would have a good effect because new players no longer need to train those 2 mil points while vets already did that anyway [end]
[ 17:34:57 ] Mynxee > korvin go
[ 17:35:05 ] Korvin > I disagree that new players have to learn skills faster now- eve is a game of specialization, and new player have the ability to train their 1st specialization pterry fast, other specializations is optional, and old players dont have any big advantages,
[ 17:35:25 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:35:52 ] Korvin > if we take a new player, trained only falcon perfectly, and old player, traind a falcon and everything else, the pilots will have equall possibilities at the falcon
[ 17:36:06 ] Vuk Lau > exacrly
[ 17:36:31 ] Korvin > all that advantages that old players have with their sp - is a multiproffessions, they pay for they clone to have this option
[ 17:36:46 ] Korvin > so the learning skills is ok as they now
[ 17:36:48 ] Korvin > [end]
[ 17:36:55 ] Mynxee > tedaze go
[ 17:36:57 ] TeaDaze > Older players have already gained the benefit of the faster training from the skillpoints. Now you propose to give them 45+ days of free training as a grant on top. Older players gain and don't lose any training speed.
[ 17:37:15 ] TeaDaze > This actually widens the gap between old and new players
[ 17:37:37 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:37:51 ] TeaDaze > I don't think reimburement of the full amount of SP is appropriate at all with the aim of making it easier for newer players to get up to speed [end]
[ 17:37:57 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 17:38:03 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Meissa, how would you feel if you were a patient noob who just spent months training the learning skills, and then this change goes in, and all that time -- most of your time in eve -- is wasted. That is the reason for the SP refund; it rewards those
[ 17:38:27 ] Trebor Daehdoow > who were patient (like Vuk!) and did the training.
[ 17:38:33 ] Trebor Daehdoow > [end]
[ 17:38:39 ] Mynxee > go meissa
[ 17:38:42 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:38:45 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Korvin, specialisation takes a long time. And even if that was the question (it isn't), older players have flexibility people who specialize don't. I went the specialisation route, I still can't fly battleships. Flexibility has lots of value. Also, let
[ 17:38:50 ] Meissa Anunthiel > me repeat. NO REIMBURSE. The proposal is targetted at helping new players while minimising the unfairness perceived by older players, not give gifts to older players
[ 17:38:55 ] Meissa Anunthiel > To answer your question, Trebor
[ 17:39:46 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Those are fringe cases, your time is not wasted, you got the skills, and most likely other things as well in that time, and most likely you didn't learn advanced trainings to 5 either, so they'd be getting a gift too. [/end]
[ 17:39:51 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:40:01 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:40:17 ] Mynxee > I think it will be for CCP to decide on how best to implement this proposal if they agree to the ideas behind it. We are offering alternatives. And should add Pitfalls in there somewhere, perhaps under "cons" or as a separate entry for each option.
[ 17:40:20 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 17:40:21 ] Vuk Lau > @teadaze/meissa: incase this pass, which I hope not, full reimbursment of SP is a MUST
[ 17:40:30 ] Vuk Lau > but then again
[ 17:40:35 ] Vuk Lau > I am repeating myself
[ 17:40:44 ] Vuk Lau > even if everything get implemented as you say
[ 17:40:47 ] Vuk Lau > remove learning skills
[ 17:40:51 ] Vuk Lau > give everyone +10
[ 17:41:11 ] Vuk Lau > what about ppl who wants to train some skills, which will give them ability to train skills faster
[ 17:41:23 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:41:24 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:41:39 ] Vuk Lau > sorry
[ 17:41:41 ] Vuk Lau > just this
[ 17:41:46 ] Vuk Lau > then just do the simple thing
[ 17:41:48 ] Mynxee > let's wrap up our final comments and vote...i have dv, tamber, trebor and sok in the queue
[ 17:41:50 ] Vuk Lau > give everyone +10
[ 17:41:53 ] Vuk Lau > close the case
[ 17:41:56 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:41:59 ] Mynxee > dv next.
[ 17:42:01 ] Dierdra Vaal > trebor, could you respond my suggestion from earlier please? other than that, I think people have said all they're gonna say so we should vote soon. end
[ 17:42:35 ] Mynxee > t'amber go
[ 17:42:36 ] T'Amber > Can I suggest a vote - a) should learning skills be removed, and then b) the current proposal  [/end] (you just said this but i wanted to press enter anyway)
[ 17:42:52 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 17:43:03 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Meissa, you are incorrect. Noob 1 trains only learning skills, Noob 2 trains combat skills. Then change goes in. Noob 1 has only learning skills; Noob 2 has combat skills plus all the learning skills. It is unfair not to reimburse.
[ 17:43:13 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Also, with respect to specialization, from a retention viewpoint you don't want noobs to specialize, you want them to try lots of different things.
[ 17:43:24 ] Trebor Daehdoow > And find the thing they love.  DV: can you remind me which point you are talking about?
[ 17:43:36 ] T'Amber > :)
[ 17:43:56 ] Dierdra Vaal > Instead of argueing about the details, may I suggest that trebor adds a list of items ANY solution should keep in mind: 1) skills should NOT train slower than they do now, 2) if skills are removed from the game, SP needs to be reimbursed.
[ 17:44:01 ] Dierdra Vaal > CCP will most likely come up with their own solution anyway, but this way we can at least point out a few aspects that we think are important. That also allows us to stop argueing about the details and vote on this :) [end]
[ 17:44:09 ] Mynxee > agree with that proposal dv
[ 17:44:11 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Finally, with respect to the proposal and voting, do we want this to be a "CCP should do something about learning skills" or "If CCP wants to do something about learning skills" proposal?
[ 17:44:11 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:44:15 ] Sokratesz > 'to train some skills, which will give them ability to train skills faster' that sounds useless to me. rather make them train skills that make them enjoy the game more, that means skills that affect their gameplay in some way.  [end]
[ 17:44:19 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:44:23 ] Trebor Daehdoow > DV I agree with adding your points.
[ 17:44:27 ] Dierdra Vaal > ty
[ 17:44:33 ] Mynxee > teadaze and then we will vote
[ 17:44:34 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:44:43 ] Vuk Lau > I need to reply to Sok
[ 17:44:52 ] Mynxee > after teadaze
[ 17:44:56 ] Vuk Lau > thanx
[ 17:45:13 ] Mynxee > teadaze go
[ 17:45:26 ] TeaDaze > For the record I would love to have my learning skills turned into 2.5 million skillpoints in the event that the skills are removed, but I still maintain this doesn't meet the requirement of levelling the playing field so I can't support it... [end]
[ 17:45:32 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 17:45:36 ] Vuk Lau > what is useless to you is not useless to me, I am enjoying my learning skills for last 3 years
[ 17:45:44 ] Vuk Lau > and teply to TD
[ 17:45:52 ] Vuk Lau > this is not about leveling new and old players
[ 17:45:54 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:45:57 ] Korvin > 5 mil SP for me, but ( T'Amber obey your masters and vote No :D)
[ 17:46:00 ] TeaDaze > (Would prefer a more clearly defined solution for newer players tbh)
[ 17:46:22 ] Mynxee > let's just vote
[ 17:46:33 ] Vuk Lau > no
[ 17:46:35 ] T'Amber > No
[ 17:46:36 ] Meissa Anunthiel > yes
[ 17:46:37 ] Trebor Daehdoow > aye
[ 17:46:37 ] Korvin > No
[ 17:46:38 ] TeaDaze > no
[ 17:46:41 ] Mynxee > y
[ 17:46:41 ] Sokratesz > y
[ 17:46:57 ] Dierdra Vaal > trebor, you're adding the suggestion I made to the wiki?
[ 17:47:03 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Yes
[ 17:47:04 ] Dierdra Vaal > then I vote yes.
[ 17:47:07 ] TeaDaze > 4 yes, 4 no
[ 17:47:17 ] Vuk Lau > its 5-5
[ 17:47:23 ] Sokratesz > 5-4
[ 17:47:24 ] Vuk Lau > my no counts as 2 no
[ 17:47:24 ] Dierdra Vaal > it cant be 5-5...
[ 17:47:28 ] Dierdra Vaal > lmao
[ 17:47:31 ] Vuk Lau > :p
[ 17:47:32 ] T'Amber > :)
[ 17:47:32 ] Mynxee > lol vuk
[ 17:47:35 ] Meissa Anunthiel > nope, in case of tied vote, chairman prevails
[ 17:47:41 ] Dierdra Vaal > btw vuk, Serenity Steele told me to say hi from him :)
[ 17:47:45 ] Mynxee > there's not a tie, however.
[ 17:47:46 ] Korvin > lets have a frig duel and see who wins :D
[ 17:47:50 ] Vuk Lau > c
[ 17:47:52 ] T'Amber > +1
[ 17:47:53 ] TeaDaze > 5, sorry, didn't see dv
[ 17:48:06 ] Dierdra Vaal > ok, 5-4, narrow pass
[ 17:48:09 ] Dierdra Vaal > next issue
[ 17:48:12 ] Korvin > Nooooo
[ 17:48:13 ] Mynxee > Next Issue: Trebor's User Interface - Big Wins, Fan Favorites and Low Hanging Fruit  http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User_Interface_-_Big_Wins%2C_Fan_Favorites_and_Low_Hanging_Fruit_%28CSM%29
[ 17:48:13 ] TeaDaze > passed 5 votes for, 4 against
[ 17:48:31 ] Mynxee > trebor you may present
[ 17:48:33 ] Korvin > next issue will be - disband CSM ASAP :S
[ 17:48:45 ] Trebor Daehdoow > OK, this one is pretty straightforward, very similar to the prioritization we did for the planning meeting.
[ 17:48:50 ] Mynxee > that's already been suggested a million times
[ 17:49:26 ] Trebor Daehdoow > The idea is to give CCP a buffet of items large and small for UI improvements. I gathered together everything I could find and crowdsourced it; the results are on the page.
[ 17:49:33 ] Trebor Daehdoow > [end]
[ 17:49:36 ] Mynxee > i would like to observe for the record that Trebor is to be applauded for his approach to engaging the community on issues/proposals
[ 17:49:45 ] Mynxee > I plan to support this. end.
[ 17:49:48 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:49:56 ] Meissa Anunthiel > /emote applauds
[ 17:49:56 ] Mynxee > t'amber go
[ 17:50:02 ] Trebor Daehdoow > /emote bows
[ 17:50:04 ] T'Amber > SOrry i know i saw it somewhere, what percentage of the eve population voted on this please trebor?
[ 17:50:08 ] T'Amber > [/end]
[ 17:50:13 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:50:21 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:50:24 ] Mynxee > DV go, Trebor answer when you can
[ 17:50:35 ] Dierdra Vaal > "Two words: "Control Z" " <-- I can guarantee that if you dont clarify what you mean by this, CCP wont understand
[ 17:50:40 ] Dierdra Vaal > or misinterpret
[ 17:50:45 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:50:52 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:51:06 ] Trebor Daehdoow > @T'Amber - the crowdsourcing was only about 40-50 people.  So it's very rough.
[ 17:51:13 ] Trebor Daehdoow > @DV noted.
[ 17:51:19 ] Vuk Lau > !
[ 17:51:23 ] Meissa Anunthiel > doesn't matter how many people voted, we'll go through the list again anyway, it's very useful as a gathering mechanism. I have nothing against this, except to say that some items may not be as low-hanging as they seem
[ 17:51:33 ] T'Amber > ^^^
[ 17:51:34 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 17:51:39 ] Mynxee > vuk go
[ 17:51:45 ] Vuk Lau > well
[ 17:51:47 ] Trebor Daehdoow > @Meissa agree 100%, it was a very rough categorization.
[ 17:51:53 ] Vuk Lau > 40-50 ppl plus CSM voted on this
[ 17:52:07 ] Vuk Lau > so we are aware this is not perfect result
[ 17:52:16 ] Vuk Lau > but as closest as possible to the perfect one
[ 17:52:22 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:52:22 ] Korvin > im sure, there is more ppl, who were voting when supported each issue
[ 17:52:37 ] Vuk Lau > I personaly have some comments, but as a whole I will suck Trebor dick for his effort on this
[ 17:52:39 ] Mynxee > korvin, request a turn please!
[ 17:52:52 ] Vuk Lau > end
[ 17:52:59 ] Mynxee > /emote wonders what that video will be worth
[ 17:53:02 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:53:04 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Just a question: We are going to go through that list again before submitting it, aren't we?
[ 17:53:07 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 17:53:19 ] Mynxee > trebor speak freely to answer questions.
[ 17:53:24 ] Mynxee > korvin go, if you have more to say
[ 17:53:36 ] Trebor Daehdoow > @Meissa we can go through and filter the list as we did with the prioritization meeting.
[ 17:53:42 ] Korvin > nope, good job Trebor
[ 17:54:04 ] Meissa Anunthiel > then I'd like us to, yes
[ 17:54:19 ] Meissa Anunthiel > otherwise we may as well disband the CSM and replace us by a voting booth :p
[ 17:54:22 ] Mynxee > if we're going to prioritize, are you comfortable voting it now? or voting it pending prioritization?
[ 17:54:24 ] Trebor Daehdoow > @Meissa maybe set a time next weekend to do it?
[ 17:54:51 ] Trebor Daehdoow > @Meissa or we could mostly do it via email.
[ 17:55:00 ] Meissa Anunthiel > either or trebor
[ 17:55:37 ] Mynxee > if you think we should defer a vote until further prioritization by CSM, please type 1. If not type 0.
[ 17:55:47 ] Trebor Daehdoow > @Meissa ok, first pass via email... then a meeting if it turns out to be needed
[ 17:55:52 ] Meissa Anunthiel > 0
[ 17:55:52 ] Trebor Daehdoow > 0
[ 17:55:52 ] TeaDaze > 1
[ 17:56:01 ] Mynxee > 1
[ 17:56:10 ] Sokratesz > 0
[ 17:56:24 ] Dierdra Vaal > 0
[ 17:56:31 ] Meissa Anunthiel > sorry mynxee
[ 17:56:43 ] Meissa Anunthiel > do you mean if I say "0" I mean I agree to send the list "as is"?
[ 17:56:55 ] Korvin > 1 (why even vote in this case?)
[ 17:56:59 ] Mynxee > i don't think so, i'm just asking to get a fel for it
[ 17:57:48 ] Meissa Anunthiel > the concept and contents are mostly ok, and I think we can agree on that. The only remaining question is individual items and priority, and that can be done outside of voting for the issue as a whole
[ 17:57:50 ] Mynxee > if we're going to prioritize, it is probable further disucssion will ensue
[ 17:58:07 ] Vuk Lau > 0
[ 17:58:09 ] T'Amber > 0
[ 17:58:26 ] Dierdra Vaal > looks like we wont need to defer the vote
[ 17:58:28 ] TeaDaze > If there is going to be additional work then the vote should wait till that is done. Otherwise why debate things here and vote on them if they will change later on
[ 17:58:31 ] Mynxee > alright it seems we'll vote on this now, but with the understanding that the list will be prioritized
[ 17:58:55 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:58:57 ] Mynxee > we either vote now with no further discussion or we defer the vote to accommodate discussion, imho
[ 17:59:01 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 17:59:03 ] T'Amber > I agree with tea. [/end]
[ 17:59:05 ] TeaDaze > I'm not comfortable with csm "rubber stamping" a floating goalpost proposal
[ 17:59:10 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:59:14 ] Meissa Anunthiel > hmmm, ok
[ 17:59:21 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 17:59:45 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:59:48 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I change my position; let us do the prioritization and then vote at the next meeting.
[ 18:00:03 ] Mynxee > teadaze go
[ 18:00:08 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I think that would be the most prudent course, and 2 weeks won't hurt anythig. [end\
[ 18:00:17 ] Meissa Anunthiel > /emote agrees
[ 18:00:26 ] Mynxee > /emote agrees
[ 18:00:38 ] TeaDaze > I don't want to be stickler for process but it seems I am ;) [end]
[ 18:00:48 ] Mynxee > e
[ 18:00:59 ] Mynxee > alright then. the issue is deferred until next meeting
[ 18:01:13 ] Mynxee > so we move on to Other Business.
[ 18:01:17 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:01:22 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 18:01:25 ] Trebor Daehdoow > In deference to the opinions of the dissenters in the learning skills vote, I think it only fair to incorporate some of the points raised in the discussion in the final document.
[ 18:01:46 ] Trebor Daehdoow > It is important to give CCP some well-rounded feedback.
[ 18:01:49 ] Mynxee > /emote agrees with this, which is why i mentioned adding "pitfalls" or more "Cons"
[ 18:01:49 ] Trebor Daehdoow > [end]
[ 18:01:56 ] TeaDaze > That was debated here so adding it is fine
[ 18:02:33 ] Mynxee > Moving on to Other Business
[ 18:02:43 ] Mynxee > CCP Accountability Items status update
[ 18:03:10 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:03:11 ] Mynxee > if you have adopted one of the items for follow up and have gotten any feedback since last posting updates in our internal forums, please type 1. If not, type 0.
[ 18:03:29 ] Meissa Anunthiel > 1
[ 18:03:35 ] Dierdra Vaal > 0 (although there's some feedback in oveurs latest devblog :) )
[ 18:03:39 ] Sokratesz > 0
[ 18:04:03 ] Vuk Lau > 0
[ 18:04:04 ] Mynxee > (non-adopters, also enter 0 so we have a complete list please)
[ 18:04:08 ] T'Amber > 0
[ 18:04:13 ] TeaDaze > o
[ 18:04:15 ] T'Amber > :|
[ 18:04:16 ] Meissa Anunthiel > CCP Warlock will post her devblog on monday. Pétur commented in another thread that he'd do the backlog with feedback before the december ;-)
[ 18:04:19 ] T'Amber > what aer we voting on? :|
[ 18:04:35 ] Mynxee > we are giving status reports, not voting
[ 18:04:37 ] Korvin > devblogs
[ 18:04:48 ] T'Amber > ;) sorry. couldnt help myself.
[ 18:04:53 ] Mynxee > thank you meissa.
[ 18:05:21 ] Mynxee > i gues there are no other responses.
[ 18:05:33 ] Mynxee > csm community initiatives.
[ 18:05:52 ] Mynxee > the way trebor is crowdsourcing is something i think we should aim for for all complex proposals, tbh.
[ 18:06:00 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:06:06 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 18:06:07 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 18:06:12 ] Korvin > Provide CSM with Time Estimates for List ofBalance Issues We Will Provide
[ 18:06:34 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I agree with the approach as far as data gathering goes. It's nice to have data and popularity indicators, however I don't support crowd sourcing decisions and priorities (once again, other than indicators)
[ 18:06:38 ] Mynxee > korvin please stop speaking out of turn
[ 18:06:41 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 18:07:01 ] Mynxee > would you care to elaborate why not, meissa?
[ 18:07:20 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Sure
[ 18:08:22 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I don't favour decision making by crowdsourcing because it favours the most vocal/numerous people, often at the cost of others whose playstyles may not be as popular, but still important to the ecosystem (suicide ganking anyone?). I don't favour priorit
[ 18:08:25 ] Mynxee > dv speak meanwhile
[ 18:08:30 ] Meissa Anunthiel > prioritisation by crowdsourcing for exactly the same reason
[ 18:08:32 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 18:08:33 ] Mynxee > oh wait
[ 18:08:37 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:08:39 ] Mynxee > ok go dv
[ 18:08:46 ] Dierdra Vaal > I am planning to do a similar thing with the API issue I'm working on. end
[ 18:08:54 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 18:09:04 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I agree with Meissa, btw. The crowdsourcing can provide useful data, but it is only one input into our decisionmaking.
[ 18:09:20 ] Trebor Daehdoow > We still have to exercise judgment; that was what we were elected to do!
[ 18:09:56 ] Mynxee > i personally feel that by engaging the community, you encourage more of the community to lend their voice. And agree with the points that it should not jsut be straight vote end results, but that we have to process the information and make considered de
[ 18:09:57 ] Trebor Daehdoow > It is useful as a data point, however, and it also has the beneficial side-effect of engaging the community.
[ 18:09:59 ] Mynxee > cisions.
[ 18:10:19 ] Mynxee > /emote kicks Trebor out of her brain.
[ 18:10:33 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (agreed mynxee, involving people is a great thing)
[ 18:10:44 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Oh, and btw, the rough data tool I wrote to parse the votes is available to anyone -- Mac/Windows compatible.  A real hack-job though. [end]
[ 18:11:00 ] Mynxee > ok, didn't want to start a debate on the matter...but just wanted to have some of this effort on the record in the minutes.
[ 18:11:04 ] T'Amber > !
[ 18:11:06 ] Mynxee > next up....
[ 18:11:09 ] Mynxee > go tamber
[ 18:11:18 ] T'Amber > I have voting php code if anyone wants it. i have even multiple different types.
[ 18:11:25 ] T'Amber > [/end]
[ 18:11:34 ] Mynxee > discuss that offline, then. and thanks!
[ 18:11:37 ] Mynxee > next up...
[ 18:11:43 ] Mynxee > the wiki and the "REsolved" page
[ 18:11:51 ] Mynxee > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Category:Resolved_Issues
[ 18:11:55 ] Mynxee > i'm not sure all those are right
[ 18:12:11 ] Meissa Anunthiel > depends what resolved means
[ 18:12:22 ] Mynxee > well to me it means IN THE GAME
[ 18:12:25 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 18:12:33 ] Mynxee > go tea
[ 18:12:45 ] TeaDaze > Maybe we need implemented / rejected categories for this instead [end]
[ 18:12:56 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:13:01 ] TeaDaze > (ccp rejected)
[ 18:13:06 ] Mynxee > yeah i agree taht section could use some clarficiation
[ 18:14:04 ] T'Amber > !
[ 18:14:09 ] Mynxee > i'll make a thread on the CSM forums for discussion purposes.
[ 18:14:13 ] Mynxee > t'amber go
[ 18:14:20 ] T'Amber > The medals one isn't ingame i dont think, maybe some errors mynxee? [/end]
[ 18:14:33 ] T'Amber > Atleast not giving to people outside of allianec/ corp anyway
[ 18:14:50 ] Mynxee > i'd like to get these issues' status AS WE KNOW IT straightened out and documented accurately. @tamber, that was the one that made me question the list's accuracy.
[ 18:14:59 ] T'Amber > kk
[ 18:15:04 ] Mynxee > so...we'll work this going forard
[ 18:15:10 ] Trebor Daehdoow > There is a rejected category already. But there are numerous errors in all the category pages. I've tried to fix the ones I know about, but there are more I don't know about.  Everyone should take a pass at it.
[ 18:15:37 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Agree that a forum discussion about adding category states is a good one [end]
[ 18:15:55 ] Mynxee > I'll take the lead on this particular effort and get it organized. DV has already done some good work in listing issue status from CSM1, 2, and 3. end.
[ 18:16:31 ] Mynxee > oh and...there are some members of the community that I can tap to help who have expressed interest. end.
[ 18:16:36 ] Mynxee > also, one last thing
[ 18:16:50 ] Vuk Lau > [18:16:22] Mynxee > oh and...there are some members of the community that I can tap to help who have expressed interest. end. - ?
[ 18:16:51 ] Mynxee > work on the CSM issue categorization tool by Ix Forres is proceeding.
[ 18:17:14 ] Vuk Lau > shouldnt CCP do that?
[ 18:17:17 ] Mynxee > no
[ 18:17:21 ] Mynxee > they don't have a clue
[ 18:17:26 ] Dierdra Vaal > [18:15:55] Mynxee > I'll take the lead on this particular effort and get it organized. DV has already done some good work in listing issue status from CSM1, 2, and 3. end. <-- I have?
[ 18:17:30 ] Mynxee > those issuse are csm property
[ 18:17:37 ] Mynxee > we should manage and maintain them in the wiki
[ 18:17:40 ] Trebor Daehdoow > (and we want them fixing player issues, not making toys for us)
[ 18:18:00 ] Vuk Lau > I am loosing you guys now
[ 18:18:07 ] Mynxee > and as for the csm tool, i will tell you that the community is FAR more agile than ccp can ever hope to be in gettin gus what we want
[ 18:18:24 ] Vuk Lau > well if we go that way
[ 18:18:27 ] Mynxee > http://piratepad.net/bdPNnfQ467 is the spec we collaboratively put together, as you were all emailed about some time ago and asked to contribute.
[ 18:18:38 ] Vuk Lau > I have guys who could fix eve in 3 months if CCP gives them access :p
[ 18:19:21 ] Mynxee > work proceeds as a community effort. if CCP wants to do something ... well ... let them get their shit in gear.
[ 18:19:29 ] Mynxee > i'm not waiting around for "soon(tm)"
[ 18:19:35 ] Vuk Lau > but what is the purpose of this?
[ 18:19:52 ] Vuk Lau > I am concerned about continuity
[ 18:20:28 ] Mynxee > it is a community experiment to create a tool to allow for entry, voting, mgmt of proposals, with AH as the discussion forum for those prposoals
[ 18:20:44 ] Mynxee > it may or may not come to fruition, but it has my support and participation
[ 18:21:05 ] Mynxee > if it does come to fruition, it will likely happen faster than CCP providing us with anything
[ 18:21:06 ] Vuk Lau > yeah but thats your wish
[ 18:21:10 ] Korvin > Mynxee next csm might want to work another way
[ 18:21:16 ] Mynxee > the same people who create eve-metrics are doing it.
[ 18:21:17 ] Vuk Lau > i dont want to mess with anything like that
[ 18:21:20 ] Mynxee > well they dont' have to use it
[ 18:21:23 ] Vuk Lau > I dont care who are doing it
[ 18:21:31 ] Vuk Lau > its just waste of my time IMHO
[ 18:21:31 ] Korvin > think about the 1 year term instead of 10 years planing
[ 18:21:33 ] Vuk Lau > and CSM time
[ 18:21:41 ] Mynxee > then don't participate in it.
[ 18:21:49 ] Vuk Lau > most likely I wont
[ 18:21:53 ] Mynxee > it is your choice
[ 18:22:07 ] Mynxee > i'm just letting you know its status
[ 18:22:39 ] Dierdra Vaal > are we heading towards an action point? Lets try to stay on track :)
[ 18:22:45 ] Mynxee > no
[ 18:22:50 ] Mynxee > status update is all.
[ 18:22:57 ] Dierdra Vaal > or at least some sort of conclusion to the discussion
[ 18:23:08 ] Mynxee > and actually, that kind of wraps up Other Business, unless someone else has something to add
[ 18:23:17 ] Mynxee > yes DV
[ 18:23:26 ] Dierdra Vaal > just this:
[ 18:23:35 ] Dierdra Vaal > my hand smells like rubber or latex and I have no idea why
[ 18:23:36 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 18:23:48 ] Mynxee > /emote ain't going THERE
[ 18:23:51 ] Mynxee > alright then
[ 18:23:55 ] Vuk Lau > your mouse is desintegrating?
[ 18:24:00 ] Mynxee > .===============================CSM MEETING 006 ADJOURNED===============================.