CSM Meeting Minutes 5.007 raw log

Meeting took place on 5th Sept 2010

[ 17:01:32 ] Mynxee > .==================================CSM MEETING 007 CALLED TO ORDER==================================.
[ 17:01:40 ] Meissa Anunthiel > we have only 7
[ 17:01:42 ] Mynxee > x up for roll call please
[ 17:01:47 ] Trebor Daehdoow > x
[ 17:01:47 ] Meissa Anunthiel > x
[ 17:01:49 ] TeaDaze > x
[ 17:01:51 ] Mynxee > x
[ 17:01:59 ] ElvenLord > y
[ 17:02:12 ] Dierdra Vaal > x
[ 17:02:45 ] Mynxee > x up Sok if you're present for the meeting.
[ 17:02:52 ] Sokratesz > x
[ 17:02:55 ] mazzilliu > x
[ 17:03:05 ] Sokratesz > i was busy building legos :D
[ 17:03:06 ] Mynxee > ok, reminders...
[ 17:03:18 ] ElvenLord > Timmy \o/
[ 17:03:21 ] Meissa Anunthiel > lego, singular, lego bricks if you want
[ 17:03:33 ] Mynxee > use ! to speak during issues discussions; i'll call on speakers; if you don't respond within 1 minute, i will move to the next person on the ! list.
[ 17:04:09 ] Mynxee > sooo...onto the issues then
[ 17:04:28 ] Mynxee > Trebor's Report on CSM filtering on User Interface http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User_Interface_-_Big_Wins%2C_Fan_Favorites_and_Low_Hanging_Fruit_%28CSM%29
[ 17:04:34 ] Mynxee > you have the floor trebor
[ 17:04:53 ] Trebor Daehdoow > At the last meeting, this issue was deferred until we could do some CSM filtering.
[ 17:05:02 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I have collated the results here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Trebor_CSM_CSS_test_page
[ 17:05:10 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (I knew I had forgotten something *bangs head on desk*)
[ 17:05:30 ] T'Amber > (i knew you had too)
[ 17:05:38 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I did it in the simplest way possible, just divided everything up into sublists based on how many CSMs liked the ideas, and inside each group by the player ratings.
[ 17:06:05 ] Trebor Daehdoow > If this is acceptable to everyone, then it can be added to the proposal page and voted on.  Questions?  [end]
[ 17:06:27 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:06:29 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:06:33 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:06:34 ] Sokratesz > you're making the rest of us look bad! :D  end
[ 17:06:52 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:06:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'm good to vote on this (and will vote thumbs up). end
[ 17:07:00 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:07:02 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:07:05 ] Mynxee > go tamber
[ 17:07:09 ] T'Amber > also, nice work [/end]
[ 17:07:14 ] Mynxee > treb
[ 17:07:23 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Sok, I just have more time than most, as I am half-retired.
[ 17:07:27 ] Trebor Daehdoow > [end]
[ 17:07:40 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:07:45 ] Mynxee > tea go
[ 17:08:14 ] TeaDaze > Seems to have covered what was asked for. Is this now a finished list (once the wiki is merged with the new page)?
[ 17:08:19 ] TeaDaze > [end]
[ 17:08:23 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:08:28 ] Mynxee > go treb
[ 17:08:34 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Yes, AFAICT [end]
[ 17:09:26 ] Mynxee > it seems we are ready to vote on this; mazz and elven are you up to speed and ready to vote?
[ 17:09:45 ] mazzilliu > yeah
[ 17:09:48 ] ElvenLord > yea
[ 17:10:05 ] Mynxee > ok let's vote for this issue:
[ 17:10:10 ] Meissa Anunthiel > yes
[ 17:10:11 ] Mynxee > Y or N
[ 17:10:12 ] Trebor Daehdoow > y
[ 17:10:12 ] TeaDaze > y
[ 17:10:14 ] mazzilliu > yes
[ 17:10:15 ] Mynxee > Y
[ 17:10:15 ] ElvenLord > y
[ 17:10:22 ] Sokratesz > y
[ 17:10:23 ] T'Amber > Y
[ 17:10:51 ] Dierdra Vaal > y
[ 17:10:55 ] TeaDaze > Passes 9 for
[ 17:11:12 ] Mynxee > ============================================
[ 17:11:29 ] Mynxee > next issue is mazz's Give unallocated skillpoints for all players on sisi every mirror http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Give_unallocated_skillpoints_for_all_players_on_sisi_every_mirror
[ 17:11:33 ] Mynxee > mazz you have the floor
[ 17:11:41 ] TeaDaze > Wiki link is http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Give_unallocated_skillpoints_for_all_players_on_sisi_every_mirror_%28CSM%29 - Reminder, to add (CSM) on the end of subject lines of new topics
[ 17:11:55 ] Mynxee > ah thanks tea
[ 17:11:57 ] TeaDaze > (or ISD rename them and the links break)
[ 17:12:01 ] Mynxee > i need to fix the meeting announcement
[ 17:12:09 ] mazzilliu > well the idea is that all the players on sisi should get 5 mil sp each mirror
[ 17:12:21 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:12:31 ] T'Amber > Good idea mazz :) [/end]
[ 17:12:31 ] mazzilliu > because it lets players catch up with their tq mains if its been a while sindce the mirror
[ 17:12:34 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:12:39 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:12:43 ] mazzilliu > since people rarely keep up the training
[ 17:12:45 ] mazzilliu > lol tamber
[ 17:12:47 ] mazzilliu > ok im done
[ 17:12:48 ] ElvenLord > !
[ 17:12:57 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 17:13:40 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:13:48 ] T'Amber > This could also reward people who help out in the testing stage [/end]
[ 17:13:53 ] Mynxee > (didn't see tamber's -end- comment lol)
[ 17:13:53 ] Meissa Anunthiel > That removes the only current incentive to join Mass Tests (since SPs are given for the participants). So I'd have to vote against.[/end]
[ 17:14:09 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:14:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > is there a reason you chose 5mil? Especially now with the skill point pool I think this could be a good idea, I'm just curious why 5mil and not 1mil or 10mil or 100mil. Also, have you considered using this as a reward for mass tests?
[ 17:14:32 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:14:40 ] Dierdra Vaal > sort of copying meissa's (it was pretyped), but I'd like to know how you see this combining with mass tests etc mazz
[ 17:14:41 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:14:53 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (it's already a reward for mass test participation, they've handed 2 mil SP to everyone last time)
[ 17:15:03 ] Dierdra Vaal > oh I was not aware.
[ 17:15:11 ] T'Amber > !!
[ 17:15:24 ] Mynxee > dv more to say?
[ 17:15:29 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'm awaiting maz's answer to my questions
[ 17:15:55 ] mazzilliu > oh, i didnt know it was what was actually handed out for mass tests, but i think it should be given out in general
[ 17:16:09 ] mazzilliu > i dont think the mass test reward thing is a reason not to do this
[ 17:16:13 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:16:24 ] mazzilliu > since this would remove a significant hinderance to sisi usage that currently exists
[ 17:16:38 ] mazzilliu > when people cant use the same items they can on tq due to old mirrors
[ 17:16:42 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 17:16:45 ] Dierdra Vaal > why not? if people can get SP normally, that removes an incentive to go to mass tests.
[ 17:16:56 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:17:25 ] Mynxee > (current list of !: EL, treb, tamber, tea, meissa); waiting for mazz to answer dv.
[ 17:17:41 ] T'Amber > Can I help answer for her please?
[ 17:17:43 ] mazzilliu > mass tests arent the only use for sisi
[ 17:17:59 ] Mynxee > no tamber unless she asks you to
[ 17:18:10 ] Dierdra Vaal > fair enough. end
[ 17:18:14 ] Mynxee > we go in order or try to
[ 17:18:18 ] Mynxee > elven, go
[ 17:18:21 ] mazzilliu > tamber i am asking you to lmao
[ 17:18:22 ] ElvenLord > I dont think this is relevant to catching up with TQ main, but it is a good way for ppl to gain certain skills that might be needed for testing of a new feature/ship or what ever. But I also think 5 mil is a bit too much as top skills are 3mil for lvl5.
[ 17:18:38 ] ElvenLord > 3 mil should be the border SP give on SISI imho
[ 17:18:58 ] ElvenLord > Anyways this is a good incentive for more ppl to join me on SISI :P
[ 17:19:03 ] ElvenLord > {end}
[ 17:19:09 ] Mynxee > treb go
[ 17:19:10 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I think that other mass-test rewards can be found, and would also note that it will help when CCP introduces new features that require skill training (as PI did). The mass-test reward basically rewarded the faithful, it would be good to have a
[ 17:19:13 ] Trebor Daehdoow > mechanism that attracts people who haven't used SiSi before. This seems reasonable. [end]
[ 17:19:25 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 17:19:30 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:19:44 ] T'Amber > Sorry, I had talked to the devs about this after I made the post on the Assembly Hall
[ 17:19:54 ] T'Amber > and they said they would impliment it, but was expecting it to take awhile.
[ 17:20:02 ] T'Amber > The reason why 5million sp
[ 17:20:11 ] Mynxee > ws this conversation shared in our internal forums or on our email list with the rest of CSM?
[ 17:20:28 ] T'Amber > there were 2 parts, and yes in the forums
[ 17:20:35 ] Mynxee > kk, coulnd't recall
[ 17:20:41 ] Mynxee > (sorry, continue)
[ 17:20:43 ] T'Amber > The people who brought it to me said 5mil
[ 17:21:01 ] T'Amber > and the reason for this is because it allows you to train from no skills, to having a class of ships you couldn't fly before, as a reward
[ 17:21:07 ] T'Amber > ie.
[ 17:21:32 ] T'Amber > Heavy Assault Ship, + the Race and some skills
[ 17:21:33 ] T'Amber > or,
[ 17:21:43 ] T'Amber > almost entry to Carrier/ Dread etc.
[ 17:22:05 ] T'Amber > 3mil sp doesnt actually give you that much more than you would already have in game
[ 17:22:15 ] T'Amber > due to the mirror process, although this isn't always true.
[ 17:22:18 ] T'Amber > [/end]
[ 17:22:24 ] Mynxee > tea go
[ 17:22:27 ] TeaDaze > I don't think the mass test rewards would be diminished because mirrors are fairly uncommon and mass tests are one or two a month at the moment. Also we had people going to mass tests without any reward so addition SP is still better than before.
[ 17:23:21 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:23:24 ] TeaDaze > Getting people onto SISI is the first step in getting them into the mass tests in the first place, as well as getting info on other changes in the pipeline. [end]
[ 17:23:29 ] Mynxee > how often is sisi mirrored, typically?
[ 17:23:38 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:23:41 ] Sokratesz > with every patch however small
[ 17:23:57 ] Meissa Anunthiel > As far as I understand, CCP already approved of this? T'?
[ 17:24:04 ] T'Amber > (I'm finding it now)
[ 17:24:14 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Because if they have the point is moot
[ 17:24:23 ] T'Amber > Can i have permission to post it?
[ 17:24:27 ] Meissa Anunthiel > post
[ 17:24:32 ] T'Amber > Mynxee?
[ 17:24:33 ] Mynxee > yes of course
[ 17:24:36 ] T'Amber > (sorry meissa)
[ 17:24:48 ] T'Amber > I've put some more pics up from other mass testings in the hope that the eyecandy can lure some more players. A player also suggeted this to reward players in sisi for taking part.-T'amber
[ 17:24:55 ] T'Amber > http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1368126
[ 17:25:01 ] T'Amber > Thanks for the screenshots!I personally like the idea of handing out skill-points for participating in mass tests and it was already discussed a bit. BUT: Nothing is decided yet and we would need tools first for tracking the participation and for ap...
[ 17:25:12 ] T'Amber > applying skill-points. Doing everything manually would take too much time, which we could use better for other things. So please don't announce anything yet...
[ 17:25:18 ] T'Amber > ^^^ lols
[ 17:25:36 ] T'Amber > The full test can be found here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1356592&page=3#82
[ 17:25:40 ] T'Amber > *text.
[ 17:26:05 ] T'Amber > As neither Mazz or I were able to make the mass test and no-one had mentioned it, we were unaware that this had been implimented in any way
[ 17:26:07 ] T'Amber > [/end]
[ 17:26:16 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:26:51 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:26:56 ] Dierdra Vaal > I think the SP reward from mass tests should not be outweighed by a standard SP bonus. While people use sisi to test fits or practice with new ships, thats not what it is for - its just a bonus. If the proposal can reflect this I can vote yes ... (cont)
[ 17:27:07 ] Dierdra Vaal > otherwise I think I'd have to vote no, unfortunately. end
[ 17:27:19 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:27:27 ] Sokratesz > I'm torn tbh, I can see it going both ways - do not want to diminish effect of SP reward for mass tests but it's a good idea to get more people to sisi in the first place. (end)
[ 17:27:37 ] Mynxee > tea go
[ 17:27:45 ] TeaDaze > If skillpoints were awarded this time, then I guess I don't have to cut that stuff out of the minutes ;) [end]
[ 17:27:58 ] T'Amber > :)
[ 17:28:07 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:28:08 ] Meissa Anunthiel > TD
[ 17:28:46 ] Meissa Anunthiel > you still have to cut it out, they apparently have a way of giving 2 mil SP to all people online or in a system, I don't know about free SPs to everyone everyone. So it'd be better to cut it still [/end]
[ 17:28:58 ] Mynxee > I personally find Sisi frustrating when i can't do there what i can do on tq. so i support the idea and don't think it'll take away from mass tests. hopefully ccp can manage it such that inactive accts dont get sisi sps tho.
[ 17:29:19 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:29:24 ] Mynxee > go tea
[ 17:29:38 ] Mynxee > also (end) for me. I always forget to add that.
[ 17:30:14 ] TeaDaze > It was in the context of awarding SP to mass test participates and not announcing it till they had the tools available. As (apparently) this has happened I don't see a problem with leaving that part of the disussion in the minutes. The 5 mil to all
[ 17:30:30 ] TeaDaze > after a mirror isn't part of that discussion. [end]
[ 17:30:34 ] T'Amber > (This is why i asked permission)
[ 17:31:07 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:31:15 ] Mynxee > go tamber
[ 17:31:55 ] T'Amber > As the mechanics are already inplace, i dont see it being to difficult to impliment as it stands. We should vote on how its written now, and bring it up again later with edits. [end]
[ 17:32:10 ] T'Amber > (if necessary)
[ 17:32:25 ] Mynxee > standard operating procedure :)
[ 17:32:48 ] Mynxee > let's vote, then. Y or N for unallocated 5M sps on sisi with each mirror:
[ 17:32:59 ] mazzilliu > yes
[ 17:33:01 ] T'Amber > Y
[ 17:33:02 ] Mynxee > Y
[ 17:33:07 ] Meissa Anunthiel > N (not asking them not to, but don't see why ask)
[ 17:33:08 ] Trebor Daehdoow > y
[ 17:33:23 ] ElvenLord > y
[ 17:33:26 ] Sokratesz > n
[ 17:33:43 ] TeaDaze > y
[ 17:33:57 ] Dierdra Vaal > n
[ 17:34:10 ] TeaDaze > Passes 6 for, 3 against
[ 17:34:22 ] Mynxee > ============================================
[ 17:34:53 ] Mynxee > Next issue is Dierdra's Revamp magnetometric sites http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Revamp_magnetometric_sites_(CSM)
[ 17:35:00 ] Dierdra Vaal > right :D
[ 17:35:00 ] Mynxee > you have teh floor DV
[ 17:35:49 ] Dierdra Vaal > well, especially in empire space (high and low sec), the value of loot obtained from magnetometric exploration sites (archaeology/salvaging) is an order of magnitude less than that of equivalent difficulty radar (hacking) sites
[ 17:36:21 ] Dierdra Vaal > even in 0.0 this difference seems to exist, though the difference isnt as big
[ 17:36:42 ] Dierdra Vaal > when we were in iceland I mentioned this during the pve meeting, and the devs acknowledges mag. sites are sort of left behind
[ 17:36:57 ] Dierdra Vaal > this proposal requests that something is done so that they are put in line with radar sites.
[ 17:36:58 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:37:01 ] Mynxee > Agree the disparity is way out of line. I can't count the number of times I have raged at teh crap gotten from magneto sites, to the extent I never do them anymore in low or high sec. So i support this proposal. [end]
[ 17:37:42 ] Dierdra Vaal > anyone else?
[ 17:38:12 ] Dierdra Vaal > I guess we can vote then
[ 17:38:15 ] Mynxee > If no one responds in another minute, we'll vote.
[ 17:38:16 ] ElvenLord > yup
[ 17:38:32 ] Sokratesz > brb visitors
[ 17:38:34 ] TeaDaze > No first hand experience of Mag sites so have to go with the expert ;)
[ 17:38:36 ] Mynxee > ok let's vote. Y or N for bringing magneto rewards up to snuff:
[ 17:38:40 ] mazzilliu > yes
[ 17:38:41 ] Mynxee > y
[ 17:38:42 ] TeaDaze > y
[ 17:38:43 ] T'Amber > yes
[ 17:38:46 ] Dierdra Vaal > y
[ 17:38:46 ] Meissa Anunthiel > yes
[ 17:38:46 ] ElvenLord > y
[ 17:38:50 ] Trebor Daehdoow > y
[ 17:39:09 ] TeaDaze > Passes 8 for, Sok afk
[ 17:39:14 ] Dierdra Vaal > wewt ^_^
[ 17:39:23 ] Mynxee > ============================================
[ 17:39:47 ] Mynxee > next is mazz's Show current number of jobs in science and industry pages right next to the max number of possible jobs
[ 17:39:51 ] TeaDaze > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Show_current_number_of_jobs_in_science_and_industry_pages_right_next_to_the_max_number_of_possible_jobs_%28CSM%29 (long subject is long)
[ 17:39:54 ] Mynxee > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Show_current_number_of_jobs_in_science_and_industry_pages_right_next_to_the_max_number_of_possible_jobs_%28CSM%29
[ 17:39:56 ] Mynxee > i want to comment on the name before discuss starts
[ 17:40:08 ] T'Amber > ! me too
[ 17:40:12 ] Mynxee > PLEASE try to shorten the proposal titles to something esier to digest
[ 17:40:41 ] mazzilliu > i was going to make it longer but decided not to add "walla walla ding dong" to the end
[ 17:40:45 ] Mynxee > when you create the wiki...even if the AH thread title is ridiculously long or has typos in it. Let's make the CSM wiki pages a bit more professional. [end]
[ 17:40:54 ] mazzilliu > i dont really have anything to say about the proposal, the title says it all 8)
[ 17:41:06 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 17:41:15 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:41:20 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:41:39 ] T'Amber > skip me for now plesae, i have computer issue
[ 17:41:47 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 17:41:49 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Just a note that this item is also item 60 in the UI Low Hanging Fruit proposal we just approved, and I will link them up when I update the page (assuming the proposal passes, grin).
[ 17:41:56 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Note that the item description on that page is even longer than Mazz's...[end]
[ 17:42:05 ] Mynxee > tea go
[ 17:42:08 ] TeaDaze > The market UI shows how many more market orders you have remaining, thus consistancy would be good. [end]
[ 17:42:30 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:42:36 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 17:42:53 ] Sokratesz > back
[ 17:43:03 ] T'Amber > http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s260/MrOosterman/sciandind1.jpg
[ 17:43:24 ] T'Amber > I have a few versions of pictures as examples, but its pretty obvious that this would be extremely useful.
[ 17:43:47 ] T'Amber > Plus Herschel Yamamoto supported it so it must be good. [/end]
[ 17:43:51 ] Mynxee > those images could be referenced in the wiki, i suggest
[ 17:43:57 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:44:04 ] Mynxee > treb go
[ 17:44:12 ] Trebor Daehdoow > And TD's point about consistency. [end]
[ 17:44:22 ] Mynxee > agreed [end]
[ 17:44:44 ] T'Amber > !
[ 17:44:47 ] Mynxee > mazz: will you update the wiki Pros section to add Tea's point about considtency?
[ 17:45:19 ] mazzilliu > mynxee i dont really think that its going to make a difference
[ 17:45:28 ] Mynxee > and perhaps add a link to the graphic Tamber just linked to the Summary?
[ 17:45:30 ] Mynxee > it's a matter of documentation
[ 17:45:40 ] mazzilliu > uhh alright ill do it
[ 17:45:44 ] T'Amber > version 1: http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s260/MrOosterman/sciandind1.jpg
[ 17:45:47 ] Mynxee > thanks
[ 17:45:54 ] T'Amber > version 2: http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s260/MrOosterman/sciandind2.jpg
[ 17:45:58 ] TeaDaze > (It is mostly a lever to CCP that they have added remaining to market orders so there is providence ;))
[ 17:46:12 ] T'Amber > version 3: http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s260/MrOosterman/sciandind3.jpg
[ 17:46:30 ] mazzilliu > how permanent is photobucket for storing images?
[ 17:46:30 ] Mynxee > tamber, did you have other comments (your ! above) or was that for linking images?
[ 17:46:35 ] T'Amber > yus
[ 17:46:36 ] T'Amber > Does anyone need an explanation of why this would be good?  Or does everyone get it and we can vote :) [/end]
[ 17:46:50 ] T'Amber > I have pro account, so the pictures will be there for a while, only the 1st is decent tho.
[ 17:46:54 ] Mynxee > no we're ready to vote, just sorting admin stuff on the wiki page.
[ 17:47:02 ] Mynxee > i would suggest they be put on eve-files tbh
[ 17:47:25 ] Mynxee > anyway let's vote: Y or NO for sci/industry current jobs number?
[ 17:47:27 ] Mynxee > Y
[ 17:47:29 ] Dierdra Vaal > y
[ 17:47:30 ] T'Amber > chribba > t'amber ?
[ 17:47:31 ] T'Amber > U
[ 17:47:31 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Y
[ 17:47:33 ] T'Amber > Y
[ 17:47:34 ] mazzilliu > yes
[ 17:47:34 ] Sokratesz > y
[ 17:47:34 ] TeaDaze > y
[ 17:47:35 ] ElvenLord > YYYYYYY
[ 17:47:36 ] Meissa Anunthiel > yes
[ 17:47:50 ] TeaDaze > Passes 9 for
[ 17:47:59 ] Mynxee > ===================================
[ 17:48:11 ] Mynxee > K that wraps up the AH proposals on the slate
[ 17:48:14 ] Mynxee > now Other Business
[ 17:48:28 ] Mynxee > CCP Accountability items...
[ 17:49:08 ] Mynxee > we got an answer about widescreen so i've sent an update to CCP so tha the wiki page can be updated. short answer is: item added to backlog to provide similar functionality.
[ 17:49:36 ] Mynxee > no other deliverables delivered that i am aware of.
[ 17:49:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:49:59 ] Mynxee > yes DV go
[ 17:50:27 ] Dierdra Vaal > I hope the widescreen issue showed CCP that they shouldnt just discount what players say if their 'data' shows otherwise
[ 17:50:29 ] Mynxee > FYI, btw: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Reference:_CCP_Deliverables_from_June_2010_Summit_%28CSM%29
[ 17:50:34 ] Dierdra Vaal > as their data is clearly not always reliable
[ 17:50:40 ] Mynxee > no kidding
[ 17:50:42 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:50:47 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:50:52 ] Mynxee > treb go
[ 17:51:24 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Perhaps we should suggest that an explanation of how this mistake occurred and how it was corrected would make for an interesting devblog [end]
[ 17:51:41 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:51:47 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 17:52:04 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'm not sure if a devblog is needed for this, but some more info on how/why their data was wrong would be good.
[ 17:52:06 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:52:58 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:53:08 ] Mynxee > i don't think there's much insight to be had...they just weren't collecting the right metrics, apparently. but for purposes of highlighting that it is important they do so, yea, a request for dev blog would be useful. [end]
[ 17:53:11 ] Mynxee > go dv
[ 17:53:23 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:53:33 ] Dierdra Vaal > I was just gonna add as an action point we should request more info from petur :)
[ 17:53:34 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:53:39 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:53:41 ] Mynxee > treb go
[ 17:54:10 ] Trebor Daehdoow > It's not a big thing, but I note that it was CSM raising questions that lead to CCP rechecking and discovering their mistake. Let's discuss it further internally. [end]
[ 17:54:35 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:54:43 ] Mynxee > teadaze go
[ 17:55:03 ] TeaDaze > I'm not sure what use a dev blog would be on this (lol, we thought only 6 people were using widescreen, doh.) but a request that they clarify their data gathering to avoid such a screw up in future would be good. [end]
[ 17:55:18 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 17:55:32 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Like there needs to be more incentives for people to say "lol, CCP fail"... I don't see what this would accomplish. Also, because they failed in one data gathering thing doesn't mean they always do. [/end]
[ 17:56:24 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 17:56:27 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 17:56:28 ] Mynxee > as a first step, i'll ask petur to provide more information about why the data they collected was so far off from reality.
[ 17:56:34 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 17:56:35 ] Dierdra Vaal > (Scratch my !)
[ 17:56:37 ] Sokratesz > i agree this doesnt need attention
[ 17:57:04 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:57:04 ] Sokratesz > ccp i very slowly convincing the public that they mean well, no need to undermine that with a tiny little thing like this
[ 17:57:06 ] Sokratesz > end
[ 17:57:15 ] Mynxee > treb go
[ 17:57:32 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I agree it's not a big thing; let's get more info and see if there is a worthwhile story there. [end]
[ 17:58:00 ] Mynxee > i agree we're veering into mountains-out-of-molehills territory. but still want to ask for the why from ccp. [end]
[ 17:58:08 ] ElvenLord > making this thing public will bring more harm then good to CCP in particular
[ 17:58:10 ] Mynxee > let's move on to the next item if no further discussion
[ 17:58:17 ] ElvenLord > tho it might give some + points to CSM
[ 17:58:29 ] ElvenLord > but I dont see it being worth while
[ 17:58:32 ] mazzilliu > were talking so much about nothing omg
[ 17:58:44 ] Mynxee > moving on...
[ 17:58:54 ] Mynxee > CSM blogs...
[ 17:59:10 ] TeaDaze > (It isn't nothing if CCP are basing decisions on incorrect data, but whatever Mazz ;))
[ 17:59:39 ] Mynxee > we've been discussing approachs and so forth, but bottom line is that CCP has agreed to publish them, which is good.
[ 18:00:10 ] Mynxee > (note that some of this discussion here is "for the record" just so players reading the minutse are aware of our behind the scenes activities)
[ 18:00:39 ] Mynxee > in any event, one of the big questions is about publishing results of August planning meeting re CSM items
[ 18:01:10 ] Mynxee > trebor has requested a vote on immediate release of this information, so let's discuss it, as there has been some debate about whether that is advisable.
[ 18:01:24 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 18:01:35 ] Mynxee > go dv
[ 18:01:51 ] Dierdra Vaal > I personally dont think a week or two delay will make a big difference, but I also think we can probably finish the devblog coming week if we pull together
[ 18:01:56 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 18:02:18 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:02:20 ] T'Amber > !
[ 18:02:27 ] Mynxee > i am in favor of this information getting out ASAP. [end]
[ 18:02:30 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 18:02:33 ] Trebor Daehdoow > With the exception of the CSM Commentary that Mynxee requested and the call to help out on SiSi, the draft is entirely factual, with no editorial opinion.
[ 18:02:41 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:02:43 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I cannot see any reason why we would not release this information to the players. It is time sensitive.[end]
[ 18:02:52 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 18:02:54 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 18:02:59 ] T'Amber > I am in favour of the majority of whats in Trebors post if broken into 2 parts [/end]
[ 18:03:18 ] Mynxee > why two parts, what two parts, tamber?
[ 18:03:49 ] T'Amber > I personally think that too much information in one go is bad, and that some introduction should be made as theres been no CSM blogs before.
[ 18:04:01 ] T'Amber > (Although there is already one with his draft)
[ 18:04:22 ] Dierdra Vaal > (there was a CSM3 blog)
[ 18:04:35 ] T'Amber > oh, i was unaware
[ 18:04:40 ] T'Amber > link? :)
[ 18:04:44 ] T'Amber > [/end]
[ 18:04:51 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 18:05:05 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I'm totally against releasing that information. The list sucks and I don't want it to be linked to "hey, this is what we got you". I'm sorry, but no. Maybe when bundled with the rest of the winter expansion, it will look like something, but right now. I
[ 18:05:54 ] Meissa Anunthiel > it plain SUCKS. I don't understand how you guys can be happy with the bone they gave us. I don't want it to be pointed at as another exemple of how useless we are when there are things we can otherwise show that portray us in a
[ 18:05:59 ] Meissa Anunthiel > better light. [/end]
[ 18:06:32 ] Mynxee > my position is that CSM did its job--submitted its prioritized list. We can't control what CCP chooses to take from the list and do. We may not be happy with it and might have wished for more, but the list is the list and as such we are (imho) obligated
[ 18:06:33 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 18:06:41 ] Mynxee > to report the facts. [end]
[ 18:06:43 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 18:06:51 ] Dierdra Vaal > I guess I dont really see how it is so time sensitive it cant wait a week (or two)? Stuff got decided, some stuff happened. It's not going to make a difference if players know this tomorrow or a week from now?
[ 18:07:00 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:07:01 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:07:08 ] Dierdra Vaal > so some clarification on why you guys think its time sensitive would be nice :) end
[ 18:07:30 ] Mynxee > mazz go
[ 18:07:48 ] mazzilliu > i am still of the opinion that nobody is going to give a shit about a huge chunk of all that tl;dr
[ 18:08:10 ] mazzilliu > nobody except the hardcore csm fanbois care about csm history, and all the hardcore csm fanbois have probably been on the csm itself
[ 18:08:30 ] mazzilliu > should could would i really cant imagine anyone not directly working with that stuff to care
[ 18:08:40 ] mazzilliu > end
[ 18:08:53 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 18:09:10 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Then if you want to report about a process, report about "we submitted this list to CCP, after prioritisation, CCP will reveal what they included in the patch notes", mission accomplished. End of story.[/end]
[ 18:10:16 ] Mynxee > i personally can think of no GOOD reason to delay it, nor to defer it to the patch notes when we know what it is now. Caveat that who knows what will really get in, in the end, but that's CCP not CSM causing that. [end]
[ 18:10:21 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 18:10:25 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Even if the list sucks, it is what CCP has said they will do. By publishing the list, we make those promises public, and harder to back off from. This is not about us being happy with the results; it is about informing the players.
[ 18:10:26 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:10:33 ] Trebor Daehdoow > With respect to time-sensitivity, the meetings were several weeks ago, and people want to know the results. If you want to work on another blog that comes out in 2-3 weeks, fine. But this should not be hostage to that effort.
[ 18:10:41 ] Trebor Daehdoow > The CSM blog process has been going on for several weeks now. Where are the other drafts?[end]
[ 18:10:52 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 18:11:01 ] Meissa Anunthiel > You don't know what it is now, all you know is what it's planned to be. And even then, that list isn't complete, and may still be altered. (cont.)
[ 18:11:04 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 18:11:33 ] Meissa Anunthiel > CCP said what they plan to do, then they told us 50% of the stuff in release planning didn't make it to the release, and other unplanned stuff made it to the release. (cont.)
[ 18:12:19 ] Meissa Anunthiel > so I don't really see any urgency in talking about the contents. All we can generate is disapointment at the small number of items, disapointment if some of the items people like don't make it, and generate nothing positive. (cont.)
[ 18:12:36 ] Meissa Anunthiel > What is there to gain by publishing the list? Really, nothing... [/end]
[ 18:13:05 ] T'Amber > !
[ 18:13:18 ] mazzilliu > !
[ 18:13:28 ] Mynxee > respectfully, meissa, i disagree with you on that. Communication with players about status is useful and wanted, if my emails and comments in forum threads are any indication. [end]
[ 18:13:31 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 18:13:43 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:13:43 ] Dierdra Vaal > in reply to other drafts - considering we havent decided on an outline yet for the blog series and blog contents that is probably the reason no other drafts have been written. I posted a proposal for the content outlines though :)
[ 18:14:05 ] Dierdra Vaal > I will most likely write something tomorrow or on tuesday btw
[ 18:14:06 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 18:14:15 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 18:14:45 ] Mynxee > yes, dv, thanks for responding so quickly to my request for doing that as a counterpoint to the outline i had posted when the discussion began. [end].
[ 18:14:49 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 18:14:54 ] T'Amber > mynxee already said what i was going to say. [/end]
[ 18:14:57 ] T'Amber > mv,
[ 18:14:59 ] T'Amber > nvm
[ 18:15:03 ] Mynxee > mazz go
[ 18:15:21 ] mazzilliu > lets just vote on releasing it now or later were going nowhere fast right now with this debate
[ 18:15:26 ] mazzilliu > voting dont release it now
[ 18:15:35 ] Mynxee > we are not voting yet mazz.
[ 18:15:39 ] Mynxee > so jsut hold that thought.
[ 18:15:42 ] Mynxee > tea go
[ 18:15:44 ] TeaDaze > I suggest we let DV and anyone else work on a draft this week and take a vote at the next meeting on Sat. One week extension and that is it. I understand the frustration with the list but that is down to CCP picking those issues. [end]
[ 18:15:44 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:15:59 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 18:16:06 ] Trebor Daehdoow > The report makes it clear what the process is, and that things can be dropped. Not releasing it only makes it EASIER for CCP to drop CSM items from the expansion. How can any of you possibly support that?
[ 18:16:16 ] Trebor Daehdoow > We need to ensure that CCP constantly feels the heat to address player concerns. That is our job.
[ 18:16:28 ] Trebor Daehdoow > These calls for delays are entirely disingenuous. For shame! [end]
[ 18:17:02 ] T'Amber > !
[ 18:17:06 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 18:17:37 ] T'Amber > I think the issue some of them have is if we publish the list and things are changed it will reflect badly on the CMS, and it will look like we
[ 18:17:50 ] T'Amber > ve taken the candy back that we just showed em. [/end]
[ 18:18:06 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:18:18 ] Mynxee > development is fluid; trebor's draft reflects that possibility. [end]
[ 18:18:21 ] Mynxee > go trebor
[ 18:18:23 ] Trebor Daehdoow > No, T'Amber, it will reflect badly on CCP, for failing to deliver on promises![end]
[ 18:18:41 ] Mynxee > if no otehr comments, we will vote
[ 18:19:06 ] T'Amber > !
[ 18:19:08 ] Mynxee > Y or N to release trebor's draft immediately?
[ 18:19:09 ] Sokratesz > pls gimme a sec to catch up
[ 18:19:16 ] Mynxee > ok sok, hold the vote.
[ 18:19:17 ] Meissa Anunthiel > hey
[ 18:19:20 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I had !
[ 18:19:23 ] T'Amber > me too please, im still; reading
[ 18:19:28 ] Mynxee > thought i calld you meissa
[ 18:19:32 ] Mynxee > go meissa
[ 18:19:34 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I agree that communication is very important, Mynxee, I however cannot agree with the extent as far as content is concerned in this particular instance. I undertand your point of view, but really can't agree with it. Also, trebor,
[ 18:19:39 ] Meissa Anunthiel > since CCP pubished that list to us, dropping items off the list wouldn't be much easier. Arguing that no publishing it will give CCP all the leeway to drop stuff out is incorrect in my opinion.
[ 18:19:54 ] Meissa Anunthiel > We can put all the pressure we want on CCP either way. It's better than generating discontent, both now and when features would get dropped.
[ 18:20:09 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:20:31 ] Meissa Anunthiel > You yourself admitted CCP failing to deliver on promises would reflect badly. Well, anything in that list will be considered a promise by the players. Thereby ensuring bad reaction when stuff inevitably gets dropped. [/end]
[ 18:20:58 ] Mynxee > go trebor
[ 18:21:02 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I would point out that the player discontent was in large part due to CCP not communicating. Now you propose to repeat their mistake. Yes, things will get dropped, but I don't want to make it easy for CCP.
[ 18:21:30 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Really, what are you all afraid of? [end]
[ 18:21:33 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:21:44 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 18:21:53 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I don't, I elect to communicate on known quantities to minimize bad reactions, and don't want to be the messenger delivering bad news. [/end]
[ 18:21:55 ] Sokratesz > alright
[ 18:22:03 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:22:08 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 18:22:08 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 18:22:24 ] Trebor Daehdoow > These are known quantities. These are things CCP says they want to do. That is important information. [end]
[ 18:22:28 ] T'Amber > !
[ 18:22:33 ] Mynxee > tea go
[ 18:22:46 ] Mynxee > (tamber will be next after tea)
[ 18:24:03 ] TeaDaze > A few CSMs have voiced concerns and I am not in favour of ramming a vote through. I fail to see why a one week delay to knock a few more things out is such a big problem. Unless it is because Vuk might be at the next meeting :P [end]
[ 18:24:31 ] ElvenLord > !
[ 18:24:50 ] Mynxee > as far as i'm concerned, elven can vote for vuk here and now as well as himself. for this particular item. [end]
[ 18:24:54 ] Mynxee > go tamber
[ 18:24:58 ] T'Amber > Lets vote to stop the circular referencing and debating and vote on the draft, please. [/end]
[ 18:25:09 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:25:11 ] Mynxee > elven go
[ 18:25:22 ] ElvenLord > Is more then obvious that you are not all on the same page with this blog. Better not to rush into it then
[ 18:25:39 ] ElvenLord > take one more week and try to make something good about it, make a plan
[ 18:25:44 ] ElvenLord > then go out with it
[ 18:26:10 ] TeaDaze > (Rushing stuff out half baked is CCP's job. Excellence, right?)
[ 18:26:16 ] ElvenLord > For one it might be a good idea to have a short retrospective of CSM in full with maybe even data I gave you on the forums
[ 18:26:28 ] ElvenLord > as CCP never made it public
[ 18:26:46 ] ElvenLord > and that data gives a good picture of CSM and its work past 3 years
[ 18:27:04 ] T'Amber > !
[ 18:27:22 ] ElvenLord > that can be used as a small introduction into changes made in CSM4 and CSM5's work
[ 18:27:36 ] ElvenLord > then later blogs go on concrete things
[ 18:27:41 ] ElvenLord > [/end]
[ 18:27:52 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 18:27:55 ] Trebor Daehdoow > As a final note, I am willing to dicuss modifications to the draft as long as the complete info about what CCP has reported is included. For example, dropping the commentary and SiSi mentions. But this is news that needs to be published,
[ 18:28:04 ] Trebor Daehdoow > It is unrelated to blogs about the history of the CSM, and so on. [end]
[ 18:29:02 ] Mynxee > also has been under discussion with no clear resolutin for over a week; i fail to see how more delay will get us to consensus. [end]
[ 18:29:17 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:29:24 ] Mynxee > tamber go
[ 18:29:28 ] T'Amber > I have to go if we're not going to vote, elven has mine. [/end]
[ 18:29:41 ] Mynxee > noted. meissa go
[ 18:29:55 ] Meissa Anunthiel > scratch it, nothing to add, I stand by my position
[ 18:30:03 ] ElvenLord > ma consultations with all delegats Mynx, see whats the commont point and start from there
[ 18:30:10 ] ElvenLord > *make
[ 18:30:19 ] ElvenLord > *common
[ 18:31:00 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:31:06 ] Mynxee > elven, i think those common points can be drawn from the discussion here which essentially mirrors what has gone on in the forum debate. [end]
[ 18:31:09 ] Mynxee > go meissa
[ 18:31:40 ] Meissa Anunthiel > a slight note. Feel free to report on the perceived value of the list if you want, that's a compromise I'm willing to accept, there will be differing opinions expressed however. [/end]
[ 18:32:11 ] Mynxee > meissa, of course, welcome and expected. [end]
[ 18:32:25 ] Mynxee > trebor, do you still want the vote?
[ 18:32:29 ] Trebor Daehdoow > yes please
[ 18:32:54 ] Mynxee > alright, i call a vote, Y or NO to release dev planning results immediately as a CSM blog?
[ 18:32:58 ] Mynxee > Y
[ 18:33:00 ] Meissa Anunthiel > N
[ 18:33:00 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Y
[ 18:33:02 ] TeaDaze > n
[ 18:33:02 ] ElvenLord > n
[ 18:33:03 ] T'Amber > Y
[ 18:33:03 ] Dierdra Vaal > N
[ 18:33:05 ] Korvin > n
[ 18:33:15 ] mazzilliu > no
[ 18:33:16 ] Sokratesz > i'm torn
[ 18:33:24 ] ElvenLord > /emote slaps T'Amber
[ 18:33:26 ] Sokratesz > but will go with the flow and vote n
[ 18:33:30 ] mazzilliu > weve debated this for over half an hour youre not allowed to be torn
[ 18:33:57 ] Sokratesz > yes miss
[ 18:34:02 ] mazzilliu > :P
[ 18:34:08 ] TeaDaze > Failed, 6 against, 3 for
[ 18:35:00 ] TeaDaze > (Backed into a corner by calling for a vote :( )
[ 18:35:01 ] Mynxee > we will revisit what to do with the information then, in further discussion on the forums. moving on...
[ 18:36:03 ] Mynxee > next up is Korvin's balance list. discussion started on our forums, but died out. we need to revisit that and i'd like some brief discussion on how to get to some consensus there.
[ 18:36:06 ] Mynxee > [end]
[ 18:36:16 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 18:36:22 ] Mynxee > (since this relates to one of CCP's deliverables)
[ 18:36:25 ] Mynxee > go dv
[ 18:36:35 ] Dierdra Vaal > its korvin's baby, so I think he should take the lead on this. end
[ 18:36:45 ] Mynxee > agreed
[ 18:36:52 ] Mynxee > /emote pokes korvin
[ 18:37:07 ] Korvin > ok, there is 2 things we need to clear there
[ 18:37:39 ] Korvin > 1st of all - CCP asked us about the list of unbalanced items, we think are of the most importance
[ 18:38:00 ] Korvin > we have the list of players requests about this issues
[ 18:38:16 ] Korvin > so i sugest we will support the items we agree
[ 18:38:37 ] Korvin > like we pick up the issues on the Assembly Hall
[ 18:39:10 ] Korvin > the 2nd thing is - the CSM position about the balance issues itself
[ 18:39:27 ] Korvin > Like  Meissa Anunthiel said - players are bad at balanceing
[ 18:39:29 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 18:39:37 ] Korvin > and I'm totaly agree with it
[ 18:39:41 ] Mynxee > are you suggesting we do a priority execise with the items in your CSM forum thread, similar to the Low Hanging Fruit that Trebor did? [end]
[ 18:40:15 ] Mynxee > (but among CSM only)
[ 18:40:22 ] Korvin > yes, we should pick the issues, everyine are agree with
[ 18:40:38 ] Korvin > in balance case - the first rule is - do no harm
[ 18:41:15 ] Mynxee > are you done korvin? can i call on meissa?
[ 18:41:28 ] Korvin > yes, [end]
[ 18:41:34 ] Mynxee > meissa go
[ 18:41:36 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Just to be clear, I don't disagree that some items are unbalanced, I just wasn't convinced some items had their place in there, I actually was convinced some items shouldn't be put in that list. But I agree with the initiative. Also, I don't have enough
[ 18:42:08 ] Meissa Anunthiel > hubris to think I'm always right, so we should discuss the ones that are pointed out as "probably shouldn't be there". [/end]
[ 18:42:38 ] Dierdra Vaal > !
[ 18:42:50 ] Mynxee > ok, instead of debating this forever here i suggest we make a renewed effort to revisit that thread and try to reach consensus there so we can move ahead on that
[ 18:42:52 ] Mynxee > dv go
[ 18:43:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > could I suggest that korvin sets up a rating system for these ballance issues like Trebor did with the ui, and we submit our picks?
[ 18:43:22 ] Dierdra Vaal > or is that too soon. end
[ 18:43:30 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 18:43:33 ] Korvin > !
[ 18:43:35 ] Mynxee > korvin?
[ 18:43:44 ] Mynxee > korvin go first, to answer dv
[ 18:43:51 ] Korvin > I suggest you to add your issues to that list first
[ 18:44:08 ] Korvin > i'm sure you have something to add
[ 18:44:43 ] Korvin > and the other thing
[ 18:44:47 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'll look it over - I dont have a lot of balancing complaints myself tho :)
[ 18:45:02 ] Korvin > there is 2 different ways of a balancing
[ 18:45:17 ] Mynxee > (except Rifters need a drone bay muahahahah.... j/k )
[ 18:45:34 ] Korvin > 1st - list of issues, when you point out the broken things
[ 18:45:40 ] Meissa Anunthiel > /emote bashes mynxee with a large trout.
[ 18:46:05 ] Mynxee > (ow!)
[ 18:46:11 ] ElvenLord > trouts sting bad, use dildos next time pls :P
[ 18:46:17 ] ElvenLord > *stink
[ 18:46:18 ] Korvin > 2nd - the global picture, what we think the weapons should be, and what advanteges each should have\
[ 18:46:46 ] Mynxee > lol elven
[ 18:47:04 ] Sokratesz > !
[ 18:47:05 ] Korvin > o.O [end] :D
[ 18:47:13 ] Mynxee > trebor go
[ 18:47:17 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I think part of the issue is that not everyone is going to be familiar with every balance problem. They need to be more completely described - with perhaps links to F&I discussions about them -- before we can make informed rating decisions. [end]
[ 18:47:34 ] Mynxee > sok go
[ 18:47:47 ] Sokratesz > the problem with balancing is always that you first need to establish what something needs to do, what it needs to be capable of. if there is no agreement on that, its useless discussing it
[ 18:47:48 ] Sokratesz > end
[ 18:48:34 ] Mynxee > seems to me there is a lot of fodder for further discussion in that thread. let's give it some love over the next few days and see if we can make some progress. [end]
[ 18:49:22 ] Mynxee > i just wanted to bring it up here to reignite the discussion. [end, for real]
[ 18:49:32 ] Mynxee > any other business or comments?
[ 18:50:09 ] Mynxee > ok then, thanks for your participation
[ 18:50:10 ] Meissa Anunthiel > if someone could get rid of IT in my system so I could lag less, that'd be appreciated :p
[ 18:50:30 ] Mynxee > LOL!.===============================CSM MEETING 007 ADJOURNED===============================.