CSM Meeting Minutes 5.013 raw log

Meeting took place on 23rd Jan 2011

[ 17:01:02 ] Mynxee > .==================================CSM MEETING 013 CALLED TO ORDER==================================.
[ 17:01:13 ] Mynxee > x up for roll call please
[ 17:01:16 ] Meissa Anunthiel > x
[ 17:01:19 ] Helen Highwater > x
[ 17:01:21 ] Mynxee > x
[ 17:01:26 ] Trebor Daehdoow > x
[ 17:01:27 ] TeaDaze > x
[ 17:01:27 ] Dierdra Vaal > x
[ 17:01:44 ] mazzilliu > x
[ 17:01:57 ] Mynxee > k, no reminders ... anyone else?
[ 17:02:49 ] Mynxee > since a quorum x'd up, let's move on to issues
[ 17:02:56 ] Mynxee > first up, DV's http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hide_avatars_in_channel_participants_list_(CSM)
[ 17:03:00 ] Mynxee > dv you have the floor
[ 17:03:01 ] Dierdra Vaal > :D
[ 17:03:11 ] Mynxee > remember to ! for speaking
[ 17:03:16 ] Mynxee > DV can talk freely
[ 17:03:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > Well this one has been brought up at least once before (in CSM1)
[ 17:03:44 ] Dierdra Vaal > basically, its a request to disable avatars in the channel participants list, allowing each entry to use less vertical space (name & icon only)
[ 17:03:47 ] Vuk Lau > x
[ 17:03:54 ] Dierdra Vaal > thus allowing you to see more people in the same space.
[ 17:03:55 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:03:56 ] Dierdra Vaal > vuk
[ 17:04:01 ] Vuk Lau > [17:00:58] Mynxee  x up for roll call please
[ 17:04:10 ] Dierdra Vaal > oh
[ 17:04:14 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:04:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > meissa :)
[ 17:04:18 ] Mynxee > thanks vuk
[ 17:04:35 ] Helen Highwater > !
[ 17:04:44 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:04:45 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I don't really see a downside to this, CCP won't like it because they want to throw InCarna in our face, but it's just very right to let us use that screen real estate how we want
[ 17:04:52 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [/end]
[ 17:05:01 ] Dierdra Vaal > well there is one downside which I identified
[ 17:05:08 ] Mynxee > !
[ 17:05:13 ] Dierdra Vaal > which is that a bot will able to have more information from his local channel too
[ 17:05:14 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:05:23 ] Dierdra Vaal > but I suppose, for bots this is already covered pretty well
[ 17:05:28 ] Dierdra Vaal > helen
[ 17:06:03 ] Helen Highwater > What is the specific prblem that this is intended to solve? Myimpression is that it's mostly for a better overview of Local rather than ontehr channels, in which case I'd rather see a system by which we can filter the channel listings by standings
[ 17:06:23 ] Helen Highwater > Rather than a different solution that only tangientially fixes that.
[ 17:06:34 ] Helen Highwater > Am I wrong in that assumption? [end]
[ 17:06:48 ] Dierdra Vaal > the problem this is meant to solve is to use our screenspace more efficiently. This applies to local, but also to fleet chat and (for some people) busy corp chats
[ 17:07:15 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (also for fleet)
[ 17:07:15 ] Dierdra Vaal > while yea, it would be better to get some sort of filtering, that is probably more effort than CCP is willing to put into channel stuff atm. end
[ 17:07:34 ] Dierdra Vaal > trebor
[ 17:07:39 ] Trebor Daehdoow > It was brought up in the low hanging fruit prioritization, but I fully support bringing it up by itself. It's such a loooow-hanging fruit, karkur could skip lunch and do it. That said, Helen has a point.
[ 17:08:06 ] Trebor Daehdoow > In the same proposal, the idea was floated to have filter boxes on everything, not just containers, which would address Helen's concern.
[ 17:08:28 ] Helen Highwater > Fleet lists can already be more efficiently handled through the feelt finder and if your corp chat is that busy then simply doubling or trebling the amount of people visible won't make that much of a difference.
[ 17:08:35 ] Trebor Daehdoow > I am happy to vote yea on this, but it would be nice if the proposal clearly referenced the related items. [end]
[ 17:08:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > While I definitely think it would be a good proposal, it is out of the scope of this one. but its worth raising it on its own
[ 17:09:02 ] Dierdra Vaal > and I'd be happy to add more related items if you can find them
[ 17:09:16 ] Dierdra Vaal > mynxee
[ 17:09:34 ] Mynxee > I would like to see this implementd as it would be less scrolling on laptop; also, CCP should put users' needs first, in terms of UI and find another way to deal with bots if it's an issue. I support this proposal for sake of user convenience.
[ 17:09:40 ] Mynxee > especially on laptops. end.
[ 17:10:03 ] Trebor Daehdoow > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User_Interface_-_Big_Wins%2C_Fan_Favorites_and_Low_Hanging_Fruit_%28CSM%29  - Big Win Filter Field, Low Hanging Fruit # 30 <-- for DV
[ 17:10:26 ] Dierdra Vaal > teadaz
[ 17:10:27 ] Dierdra Vaal > e
[ 17:10:33 ] TeaDaze > Filtering in chat channels is fine, adding filtering to local just increases its power as an intel tool. Not supported at all. Hiding portraits won't really reduce the hight taken with each character unless you also do something about the standing icon.
[ 17:10:47 ] Mynxee > !
[ 17:10:47 ] TeaDaze > [end]
[ 17:11:10 ] Dierdra Vaal > may I point out the issue at hand is not related to filtering anything
[ 17:11:37 ] Dierdra Vaal > the height would only need to be as high as the text
[ 17:11:45 ] Dierdra Vaal > which currently is about 1/3rd of the height of a portrait
[ 17:11:46 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (or the icon)
[ 17:12:00 ] Dierdra Vaal > currently, icons are the same height as the text it sound see
[ 17:12:08 ] Dierdra Vaal > seem
[ 17:12:24 ] Dierdra Vaal > so you'd be able to cut the height be 2/rds
[ 17:12:33 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:12:36 ] Dierdra Vaal > TD
[ 17:13:25 ] Mynxee > !
[ 17:13:56 ] TeaDaze > Currently the standing icons are similar hight but offset so they don't overlap all the text. You'd need to move then to where the portraits were which doesn't reduce the space taken up horizontally by much. I'd prefer to have the old style
[ 17:14:08 ] TeaDaze > "Click to show" option over not showing at all
[ 17:14:14 ] TeaDaze > [end]
[ 17:14:31 ] Dierdra Vaal > click to show doesnt do anything about the screen space it takes up
[ 17:14:36 ] Dierdra Vaal > and that option would not be removed
[ 17:14:50 ] TeaDaze > It already has been
[ 17:15:07 ] Dierdra Vaal > this is just an option for those of us who dont want the portrait to take up excess screen space
[ 17:15:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > regardless, the 'click to show' is a seperate issue that you can bring up if you like - but is in no way related (or impeded) by this one)
[ 17:15:57 ] Dierdra Vaal > mynxee
[ 17:16:02 ] Mynxee > could support keeping local as is and allowing customizing of fleet/corp/private channels only to permit zero portraits. not sure if they can be separately dealt with in that way though. or how worth it doing so would be. end.
[ 17:16:32 ] Helen Highwater > For the minutes I note that Korvin has just joined
[ 17:16:35 ] Mynxee > ( and alliance of course )
[ 17:16:38 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:16:40 ] Dierdra Vaal > I see no need to make an exception for local to be honest - give users the option and let them make their own choice. end
[ 17:16:41 ] Dierdra Vaal > TD
[ 17:16:49 ] Korvin > yeah, my client was hanged up
[ 17:17:23 ] Korvin > \o/
[ 17:17:26 ] Mynxee > welcome korvin
[ 17:17:44 ] TeaDaze > I think it would be better to address related chat portrait issues in one proposal rather than try to have many sepatate proposals on the same related thing [end]
[ 17:18:34 ] Korvin > is this kind of issues shouldnt be submitted as bugreports?
[ 17:18:38 ] Dierdra Vaal > I disagree, I fear CCP would simply go :effort: and ignore all of it, rather than do at least some of it. still its a valid point.
[ 17:18:52 ] Dierdra Vaal > no, this issue is not a bug, its a feature request
[ 17:19:04 ] Dierdra Vaal > anyway, anyone have any more questions?
[ 17:19:08 ] Dierdra Vaal > otherwise I think we can vote
[ 17:19:13 ] Mynxee > nope, ready to vote here.
[ 17:19:23 ] Helen Highwater > For Korvin: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hide_avatars_in_channel_participants_list_(CSM)
[ 17:19:35 ] Helen Highwater > is what we are voting on
[ 17:19:40 ] Meissa Anunthiel > /emote votes yes
[ 17:19:52 ] Vuk Lau > yes
[ 17:19:53 ] Mynxee > Yes
[ 17:19:57 ] Helen Highwater > yes
[ 17:19:58 ] Dierdra Vaal > yes
[ 17:19:58 ] Trebor Daehdoow > /emote raises his hand and intones "aye"
[ 17:20:20 ] mazzilliu > yes
[ 17:20:25 ] TeaDaze > yes (though I still disagree with these old style narrow foccused issues)
[ 17:20:51 ] Korvin > y
[ 17:21:28 ] TeaDaze > Passes 9 for
[ 17:21:31 ] Dierdra Vaal > yay
[ 17:21:36 ] Mynxee > Okay
[ 17:21:46 ] Mynxee > next proposal is from DV, http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Export/Import_keyboard_shortcut_config_%28CSM%29
[ 17:21:57 ] Mynxee > DV has the floor, and may speak freely.
[ 17:22:05 ] Meissa Anunthiel > !
[ 17:22:28 ] Dierdra Vaal > ok
[ 17:22:37 ] Dierdra Vaal > we got some cool new keyboard shortcuts
[ 17:22:43 ] Dierdra Vaal > but these are per-account stored
[ 17:22:51 ] Dierdra Vaal > it'd be nice if we could import/export them
[ 17:22:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > end
[ 17:22:54 ] Dierdra Vaal > Meissa
[ 17:23:06 ] Helen Highwater > !
[ 17:23:06 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Didn't CCP already agree to save all local settings to the server? Would make the point moot.
[ 17:23:23 ] Korvin > ^^
[ 17:23:24 ] Dierdra Vaal > not if they still dont allow you to move settings from 1 account to another
[ 17:23:30 ] Meissa Anunthiel > (not finished)
[ 17:23:32 ] Dierdra Vaal > which is not guaranteed by simply storing them on the server
[ 17:23:56 ] Meissa Anunthiel > assuming, of course, they'll provide ways to copy from one char to the other, which is what they'll most likely answer us if we request this, in line with their policy of grouping changes together. [/end]
[ 17:24:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > yes but when you assume you make an ass out of you and me :P
[ 17:24:45 ] Dierdra Vaal > I hate to use the phrase, but I'd prefer to simply file this request and let CCP handle it (either client side or server side) than assume they'll have thought of this one their own
[ 17:24:55 ] Dierdra Vaal > or assume we'll remember to request it when it comes up
[ 17:24:57 ] Mynxee > agreed 100%
[ 17:25:00 ] Meissa Anunthiel > ( fair point )
[ 17:25:12 ] Dierdra Vaal > any other questions?
[ 17:25:19 ] TeaDaze > !
[ 17:25:21 ] Meissa Anunthiel > [17:23:05] Helen Highwater  !
[ 17:25:22 ] Dierdra Vaal > TD
[ 17:25:25 ] Dierdra Vaal > oops
[ 17:25:27 ] Dierdra Vaal > helen first
[ 17:25:48 ] Helen Highwater > No, I was going to make a point about client vs account level settings but that's largely moot if CCP go to a cloud based system anyway
[ 17:25:52 ] Helen Highwater > [end]
[ 17:26:22 ] Dierdra Vaal > TD
[ 17:26:52 ] TeaDaze > Would prefer an export / import via file as per proposal than giving CCP information to link between accounts. [end]
[ 17:27:31 ] Mynxee > yes
[ 17:27:39 ] Dierdra Vaal > right now, as far as I know there are no immediate plans to implement a cloud service.
[ 17:27:43 ] Dierdra Vaal > am I wrong?
[ 17:28:10 ] Dierdra Vaal > so I think that discussion is outside the scope of this proposal
[ 17:28:24 ] Dierdra Vaal > I think we can vote unless someone has more questions comments?
[ 17:29:00 ] Helen Highwater > !
[ 17:29:08 ] Dierdra Vaal > helen
[ 17:30:06 ] Helen Highwater > One thing quickly. Would it be better to ask for a more overarching 'export settings' function that exports overview, graphics, keybindings etc in one package so that you can deploy multiple clients or accounts with identical settings easily
[ 17:30:14 ] Helen Highwater > [end]
[ 17:30:27 ] Korvin > !
[ 17:30:40 ] ElvenLord > /emote is back
[ 17:30:51 ] Meissa Anunthiel > "As a player, I want to copy an arbitrary number of settings from one character to another"?
[ 17:31:05 ] Dierdra Vaal > interesting idea
[ 17:31:17 ] Helen Highwater > No, as a player I wantmy Eve Experience to be identical across multiple installs
[ 17:31:36 ] Mynxee > yeah would love that too
[ 17:31:43 ] Dierdra Vaal > except thats not always the case - my alt accounts only run in small, shit-graphics instances
[ 17:31:55 ] Dierdra Vaal > so I'd want to copy my shortcuts, but not my graphics settings, for example
[ 17:32:19 ] Helen Highwater > so you crank down the graphics settings on that. It's a simple fix and not nearly as much work as trying to set up multple clients to be the same at work, at home etc
[ 17:32:26 ] Trebor Daehdoow > !
[ 17:32:29 ] TeaDaze > Tick boxes to choose which bits as per importing overview settings
[ 17:32:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > my point is - regardless of the wording, do you guys want me to adjust the issue to cover all settings?
[ 17:33:19 ] Helen Highwater > As a player I want my Eve experience to be identical across multiple installs
[ 17:33:23 ] Helen Highwater > is how I'd say it
[ 17:33:27 ] Helen Highwater > and did
[ 17:33:46 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I think extending it would be better
[ 17:34:11 ] Dierdra Vaal > does anyone disagree with this?
[ 17:34:37 ] Mynxee > nope
[ 17:34:40 ] Dierdra Vaal > ok
[ 17:34:43 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'll adjust it
[ 17:34:45 ] Dierdra Vaal > Trebor had a !
[ 17:35:19 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Export and Import let you select what you want to include. So you can export a partial set of settings, and import a subset of those. But all settings included is a goodness.
[ 17:35:21 ] Trebor Daehdoow > "As a player, I will be able to export any or all of my preferences and settings, and import any subset of the exported settings into any of my accounts." [end]
[ 17:36:28 ] Dierdra Vaal > how about "As a player I am able to synchronise whatever settings I have between characters and accounts" - this would omit mentioning export/import, leaving CCP free to decide on client side imports or some sort of cloud service?
[ 17:36:40 ] Trebor Daehdoow > FBM
[ 17:36:53 ] Dierdra Vaal > helen ok with that?
[ 17:37:15 ] Trebor Daehdoow > But sync implies "make identical" so make it more clear that you can do it with any subset.
[ 17:37:21 ] Korvin > eve.cfg editable :D
[ 17:37:32 ] Korvin > like overviev xml
[ 17:37:41 ] Dierdra Vaal > ok
[ 17:38:02 ] Dierdra Vaal > "As a player I can synchronise an arbitrary collection of settings between characters and accounts."
[ 17:38:03 ] Dierdra Vaal > ?
[ 17:38:14 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Sure
[ 17:38:15 ] Mynxee > do like.
[ 17:38:30 ] Dierdra Vaal > ok so then that becomes the vote
[ 17:38:32 ] Helen Highwater > yeah
[ 17:38:35 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'll edit the wiki now
[ 17:39:38 ] TeaDaze > Again I would stress it should not require linking accounts.
[ 17:40:35 ] Korvin > [begin] for m=1 to 6 do vote [end]
[ 17:41:21 ] Trebor Daehdoow > while (strength > 0) quibble;
[ 17:41:30 ] Vuk Lau > stop
[ 17:41:43 ] Vuk Lau > delete boot.ini
[ 17:41:52 ] Korvin > unexpected chat error ()
[ 17:42:04 ] Meissa Anunthiel > what IRQ do you think you have VUK :p
[ 17:42:31 ] Meissa Anunthiel > preempting every process like that, we didn't nice you that I know of :p
[ 17:42:32 ] Dierdra Vaal > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Export/Import_keyboard_shortcut_config_%28CSM%29 <-- changes made (unfortunately I cant edit the header)
[ 17:42:43 ] Dierdra Vaal > but I'm calling a vote on the text in the proposal
[ 17:42:53 ] Meissa Anunthiel > /emote votes yes
[ 17:42:54 ] Vuk Lau > yes
[ 17:42:59 ] Trebor Daehdoow > yes
[ 17:42:59 ] Korvin > y
[ 17:43:06 ] Mynxee > yes
[ 17:43:07 ] Dierdra Vaal > yes
[ 17:43:11 ] mazzilliu > yes
[ 17:43:18 ] TeaDaze > yes
[ 17:43:21 ] Helen Highwater > yes
[ 17:43:30 ] TeaDaze > Passes 9 For
[ 17:43:39 ] Dierdra Vaal > small thing:
[ 17:43:49 ] Dierdra Vaal > should I remake the issue page with a fitting title?
[ 17:43:52 ] Dierdra Vaal > or keep it as it is
[ 17:44:06 ] Vuk Lau > guys I am sorry but I need to go to the office
[ 17:44:12 ] Korvin > y
[ 17:44:14 ] Trebor Daehdoow > Remake it if you feel the inclination.
[ 17:44:23 ] Mynxee > i would dv
[ 17:44:24 ] Dierdra Vaal > I'll do that to avoid confusing ccp
[ 17:44:29 ] Mynxee > for easier reference in the future
[ 17:44:31 ] Mynxee > and yeah that
[ 17:45:05 ] TeaDaze > Can you mail me the updated one for the minutes
[ 17:45:18 ] Dierdra Vaal > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Synchronise_settings_accross_characters%2C_accounts_and_installs_%28CSM%29 <--  new one
[ 17:45:26 ] TeaDaze > or that
[ 17:45:28 ] Mynxee > DV is quick
[ 17:45:41 ] Dierdra Vaal > anyway that concludes this issue
[ 17:45:56 ] Mynxee > ok
[ 17:46:02 ] Mynxee > those are the only two issues we had on teh agenda
[ 17:46:08 ] Mynxee > so onto other business
[ 17:46:26 ] Mynxee > i have teh continuity doc partway drafted and hope to get it done this afternoon and passed to trebor for editing.
[ 17:46:37 ] Mynxee > then you guys can tear it up and we'll revise accordingly
[ 17:46:57 ] Korvin > does it have alot of pics?
[ 17:46:57 ] Mynxee > are there any post summit matters anyone needs/wants to bring up?
[ 17:47:07 ] Mynxee > all naked wimmen, korvin
[ 17:47:09 ] Mynxee > just for you
[ 17:47:13 ] Korvin > in colors?
[ 17:47:21 ] Mynxee > lol yes
[ 17:47:25 ] Korvin > cool
[ 17:47:43 ] Mynxee > [17:46:56] Mynxee  are there any post summit matters anyone needs/wants to bring up?
[ 17:48:00 ] Meissa Anunthiel > hmmm
[ 17:48:02 ] Meissa Anunthiel > maybe
[ 17:48:02 ] Mynxee > apparently not
[ 17:48:05 ] Mynxee > ok
[ 17:48:08 ] Meissa Anunthiel > InCarna...
[ 17:48:12 ] Korvin > yeah
[ 17:48:15 ] Mynxee > speak freely now. we're out of ! mode
[ 17:48:16 ] Korvin > incarna
[ 17:48:16 ] Meissa Anunthiel > We warned CCP to start releasing information
[ 17:48:30 ] Meissa Anunthiel > we gave them 6 weeks to start
[ 17:48:40 ] Mynxee > and nothing yet.
[ 17:48:43 ] Meissa Anunthiel > the release planning has happened, and CCP still hasnt answered
[ 17:49:03 ] Mynxee > perhaps we need to make a public statement and request on the forums.
[ 17:49:06 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I think we should send them a strongly worded message about heeding our warnings
[ 17:49:33 ] Mynxee > would you care to draft that, meissa?
[ 17:49:36 ] Meissa Anunthiel > and, should they decide still not to do anything, maybe release a statement, while staying on NDA
[ 17:50:06 ] Dierdra Vaal > I think - for those who keep track - the CSMs message on incarna has been quite clear
[ 17:50:07 ] Meissa Anunthiel > Ok... Feel free to amend it later, I'm not the best at wordsmithery
[ 17:50:07 ] Mynxee > agreed on that approach.
[ 17:50:12 ] Dierdra Vaal > but I agree that reminding CCP is a good thing
[ 17:51:00 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I'll send a draft to the mailing list tonight
[ 17:51:14 ] Mynxee > how about we work the message via our email list, just us CSMs, then when we're happy with it, post a thread on our internal forums, and request petur to get the word out in ccp
[ 17:51:22 ] Helen Highwater > If you like I'll write a statement for that
[ 17:51:26 ] Meissa Anunthiel > exactly my thought
[ 17:51:28 ] Helen Highwater > At elast a draft
[ 17:51:51 ] Mynxee > meissa, want helen to draft it?
[ 17:52:10 ] Meissa Anunthiel > either or
[ 17:52:15 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I'm not possessive :p
[ 17:52:59 ] Meissa Anunthiel > I'll chat with Helen, one of us will send the message out
[ 17:52:59 ] Mynxee > might be interesting to see both of you submit thoughts, then the rest of us can react, and combine into one with feedback incorporated.
[ 17:53:01 ] Helen Highwater > I'll do it then. Do we want the draft processon the forum or shall we keep it to the emaillist until we are ready to unleash it?
[ 17:53:05 ] Mynxee > sounds good
[ 17:53:22 ] Meissa Anunthiel > mailing list with just CSM first, then when we're happy, release it
[ 17:53:25 ] Meissa Anunthiel > to CCP
[ 17:53:30 ] Mynxee > keep it to the email list until we are ready to publish for ccp, yup.
[ 17:53:34 ] Helen Highwater > grand
[ 17:53:55 ] Mynxee > cool. that's all i have. anyone else have any other business?
[ 17:54:23 ] Mynxee > k then. thanks for your participation today.
[ 17:54:27 ] Mynxee > .===============================CSM MEETING 013 ADJOURNED===============================.