TeaDaze.net

You will be missed but if this is the right decision FOR you then nobody else here has a right to gainsay it. Darn, I did want your stuff.

I want to thank you from the bottom of my avatars heart (and my own) for all the things you have done for the game and tell you that you have my utmost respect for those efforts and for the skills in communication that you have shown right up to and including this post.

Thank you

m

It is very sad to see you go. I think that 99% of the EVE community (the rest being ignorant twats) appreciates the massive amount of work that you and the rest of the CSM had put into improving the game. I also think that CCP has created a beast in EVE that they do not really understand. For all the talk about ‘The Sandbox’, I don’t think that they really understand what it is or why it is special.

Good luck in the future Tea.

Take care Tea, you made a real difference to Agony (not to mention to the Eve community in general via your work on the CSM), it was great having you around.

At the end of the day when a game stops being fun it’s time to put it down, and I know you passed that point some time ago.

Good luck with everything o7

Sorry to see you go, mate. You received all of my CSM votes the last two elections (for obvious reasons 😉 ), and I want to thank you for all the hard work you’ve done for the EVE community both as part of the CSM and as part of AGONY. You will be greatly missed and I for one will hope to see you back in New Eden someday.

As somebody who voted for you (and endorsed you publicly), I’m very sorry to see you go. And while we disagree on the specifics here, we certainly do see some of these issues the same. Not that I’ve logged in for more than a skill change or a bit of conversation in months now, myself…

Fly safe, and hopefully we’ll bump into each other one of these days when we both happen to come check out New Eden’s progress.

FYI, I linked to this post in my own blog. http://kantlavar.blogspot.com/2011/02/dont-leap-to-judgements.html

Thanks for all your work, Tea, in Agony and CSM both! It is sad to see your engagement in Eve end on this note, but in the end it is just a game and supposed to be fun.

…however, I will not be surprised if you happened to come back at some future time – Eve is hard to truly walk away from.

Good luck!

Hey Tea, I understand and support your decision 100%. My interest in EVE is at an all time low too. I just find myself consistently disappointed. Even so, there are plenty of people who are happy with the status quo and whatever CCP decides to deliver.

Difference in perspectives, I guess. As a CSM member, it’s no fun when the peek behind the curtain that you get as a result reveals that “the great and powerful Oz” is a sham. It’s concerning to me that there is so little evidence–both in recent and planned expansions–that EVE designers/visionaries have any plans to grow the game in ways that give PLAYERS more opportunities to persistently impact their environment, to change the universe in ways that affect other players. Instead, the focus seems to be on force-feeding essentially canned experiences to players. The game grows more shallow by the day, I fear. I wonder how this will impact EVE’s culture over time. Probably not in a way that will re-motivate me to ever again play more than extremely casually.

solidarity bro, you’ll be missed. As a vocal sup[porter and having been acused of BOVS (bitter old vets syndrome) I can only empathize with your decision. When 1 CSM person says hmm I’m not so sure anymore I notice…when MANY say it I become concerned…greatly. When the two people I voted for have major changes of heart…it is easy to slip into despair.

I wish you only the best.

Fair winds and following seas, may the roads rise up to meet you, and the wind be at your back.

if your at FF2011 ( and I don’t expect you but you never know) first round is on me.

I am very sad to see you go mate. You brought a lot to both the game and the CSM. Don’t let anyone tell you that it’s wrong for you to leave. If you are not having fun in the game, time to change games.

Take care mate!

Throwing my two cents into the ring – both you and Mynxee have seen glimpses of the future and not particularly liked it. I’d ask you to consider this: what if you hadn’t? Would you still be able to find a niche within the game that you love?

I still think it’s the people and the community that make it what it is. Being purely selfish, I don’t want to see more of the pillars of our community go.

And so I ask why not forget the macro view, jump in a ship and ride the adrenaline rush once again. And see whether really and truly you want to walk away.

QQ more.

What’s the big deal? I *really* can’t see the issue here. All these crybabies qq-ing over nothing.

*Sigh*. Good riddance.

I think people have a choice when it comes to change. You are making the change that is best for you. I salute you for your dedication and commitment over the years, and wish you the best.

@Tea

Hmmmm. Not optional? I can certainly see your point and respect your decision.

As all the others have said (well, with one exception… and there’s always one, isn’t there?), take care, fly safe, hope to see you back.

Take care man. Sorry to see you go to. I would be very surprised if CCP will be so stupid as to wreck their game where docking becomes a huge hassle for capsuleers – or PvP somehow becomes “avatar” centric.

What I’m guessing is you became so committed to your vision – shared apparently with many capable members of the recent CSM – and then discovered a yawning gap between that and future CCP plans – that the disappointment was just too great to bear.

Keep at least one account open. As Mynxee writes – even casual play you might enjoy – without burning your candle so bright. And it is just a game afterall – never will be perfect – might even get worse. But IMO there is still some fun to be had with PvP and the comraderie of online friends.

Regards

Very sad to see you go, Tea. You were one of the people who actively worked to improve the game and I appreciate your contributions to Agony and to CSM. Since I can’t vote for you again, I’ll have to find another candidate. Was going to vote for Lark T. but CCP pulled a switcharoo and won’t let him run despite telling him he could run earlier.

As you say, never say never. I’m optimistic that Eve won’t go down the drain and that you’ll come back some day.

totally agree with new avatars ruining my experience. So wish i could have imported my old one, my amarr was epic. now i just clicked ‘random’ > finish.

Sorry to see ya go Tea. EVE is evolving. Come Incarna, a framework will be deployed that will change EVE forever. And its gonna be fucking awesome. Its not gonna be sims in space. Its gonna open up new possibilites of deception, deciet and subversion. Its gonna take some time to get everything in place, but thats ok.

CSM has done a decent job, but i cant help to feel that the current – and previos – CSM just lack vision. You have been 100% commited to “fix” existing gameplay and 0% commited to support CCP in their vision for the game. Thats gonna take you only so far when dealing with a commercial company.

Personally, I think we will see quite a few of the bitter old vets refusing to adapt and stop resubbing. But I also think that is a price very worth paying for the awesomeness that is to come, as their “contributions” currently are purely negative. Personally I cant wait to get my hands on Incarna – and Dust 514. Have fun whatever you want to do.

@Laurentius: Guess some of us define awesome differently from others. No one wants Incarna to be awesome more than me. But there we go again…what CCP defines as awesome and what I think of as awesome–both personally and based on having been talking about it with players for the last 10 months…well…very different definitions of awesome there.

As Teadaze said, how could CSM support a vision which they had been given exactly no substantive information about? Or any evidence whatsoever that any progress in any way had been made to-date…until Chiliad’s recent dev blog? It’s not the CSM that is inflexible, I assure you.

@Tea & Mynxee.

Sorry Tea, didnt mean to come across as “writing off all the CSM progess”. In that departement, CSM has done a brilliant job in getting resorces to adress vital gameplay issues for us all.

However, looking at the whole, I’d still stand by that I feel CSM lacks vision. Maybe the reason why you havent been given insight is precisely because CCP knows exactly what is going to come from CSM if you got it, namely “do what you want but dont make us veterans play your stupid sims in space”. I mean…. seriously? Right now the big issue seems to be if the incarna component of the dock/undock procedure take more time than the current 30 sedcond session change timer. Thats the “vision” displayed by the playerbase today.
To be honest, “make it optional” is an attidude that provides neither guidance nor vision. Where is the CSM initiative to ask players what features they want to see in Incarna? Where is the document that compiles the combined visions of said playerbase? You have been reactive insted of proactive. Blaming CCP for “smoke and mirrors” while you COULD have contributed by using the playerbase.

I think you just confirmed everything I said. The CSM had no issues with “calling bullshit” on CCP last summer, and actually got resuorces rerouted to issues that were important. But the same The CSM seemingly have big issues at calling bullshit on CCP when it comes to proactively providing input on Incarna. “Its not our job” is of course an easy way out, but its nontheless disappointing, especially since the assmbly hall is full of eveplayers that coulndt give a rats ass about whats their “job” and give input nontheless.

As for swallowing the “hype” as you call it, well I’d rather have a positive outlook on an awesome game than sinking into bitter old vet syndrome. BOVS is no fun. Not at all.

@ Laur

I think CCP may have a bit too much ‘vision’ and bit of a shortage of ‘down-to-earthness’ when it comes to the concerns of their player base. You’re buying into CCP’s marketing machine a little too easy I think.

Awesome is not a justification for anything

So which is it? One one side you have Tea saying that CCP has no vision whatsoever. On the other side you are saying that CCP has too much vision. For the record, I am far to old to “buy into CCPs marketing machine” or falling for Teas “I know more than you” play. But what I SEE, is devs that care, devs that usually does a MUCH better job than players give them credit for (remember player reaction to the speed nerf anyone?). I also SEE a CSM that care just enough about Incarna to demand it beeing “optional” so they dont have to touch it.

Incarna shouldnt be optional. Incarna should transform the EVE experience for all and increase the immersion aspect 1000 times. This change is long overdue. And yes, it should bloody well be mandatory. Anyways. I’m done. Laurentius out.

You use this word, ‘vision’ but I don’t think you know what it means. Teadaze and I happen to share some convictions, and one of them is that some people in CCP do not seem to care at all what the players think, and some of them don’t even seem to know, nor care, about EVE itself.

‘Incarna shouldnt be optional. Incarna should transform the EVE experience for all and increase the immersion aspect 1000 times.’

What if people do not want to use it? What if it unnecessarily complicates the spaceship part of EVE? What if it turns out to be just a lot of fancy ways to do stuff that we could do quicker and more effective in 2D?

So….you and Teadaze share some convictions. Yet you can not agree if CCP lacks vision or have a bit too much of it. And still you claim that I am the one that dont know what the word means. Priceless.

What if people dont want to use Incarna? I think they do, once they get their hands on it. And for thoose of you that doesnt, I can recommend a good game of Dune 2. Its 2D, its quick and effective. And its awesome. Dont let the door hit you on the way out.

I thought you were ‘out’?

‘What if people dont want to use Incarna? I think they do, once they get their hands on it. And for thoose of you that doesnt, I can recommend a good game of Dune 2. Its 2D, its quick and effective. And its awesome. Dont let the door hit you on the way out.’

People will only want it if it’s really good and adds something to EVE. Not if it offers a slightly less convenient way to do something that they could do perfectly well in 2D before.

Your comparison to dune 2 fails on all fronts. First of all Frank Herbert was a massive faggot, but his books were pretty good, second, the game pretty much invented the RTS genre and I really don’t see CCP doing anything remotely resembling that with Incarna. Some people will love Incarna just because it’s 3D, others won’t, but making it mandatory to do things less quickly than before just because it’s 3D is not enough. Just saying that people will use it because it’s awesome is not enough.

You make something, people use it, declare it is awesome, and then use it some more. You don’t start with the awesome part, that’s what got us the trainwreck called daikatana.

Laur, you are discussing semantics for arguments sake, I’m sure you know exactly what both Tea and Sok mean.

As for Tea quitting, it’s sad, but I can relate. I haven’t seen enough to do the same, so I’ll stay until then. Incarna could potentially indeed be a good addition to the game, but all evidence and CCPs track record points to the contrary. The only mandatory gameplay eve got away with is ‘pvp starts when you undock’ (and thats good), all other unfinished/bad parts of the game could be avoided more or less, if players so desired. Forcing shiny but essentially non-gameplay on players is stupid.

Its not that Aineko, I just resent their debating teqhnique. As will be very clear from the above, I am in disagreement with Tea. No suprise there. However, Tea, which in the OP makes a big point about that everyone is entiteled to their opinion, resorts to the “I know information you dont” and “you are easily fooled by CCPs marketing machine” statement to belittle his opponent. And then Sokratez comes along, and try to pin the “stupid” label on me with his “i dont think you understand what this word means” teqnique, instead of actually dicussing whats on the table. It could have been a good discussion, but now i cant really be assed. o/

Okay i’ll bite. In your OP, you state that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Yet, when I express that I disagree with you, you resort to teqniques that “explain” why this could possibly be that has little to do with the case beeing discussed.

First, since I use the word “awesome”, you imply that I must be an easy victim to the “CCP marketing machine” and thus not able to see the truth for all the “hype” that machine spews out. Let me remind you that the word “awesome” is not reserved for CCP use only. It is in fact a word that I like to use, and it has nothing whatsoever with CCPs use of the same word.

Then, in the constant references to all the information you have “under NDA” (which I obviously dont have) you imply this to be the reason why we disagree.

In short, you state that the reason we disagree about this, is that I must be either a) easily duped or b) ignorant. No other explaination is possible. After all, who could concievably disagree with you?

Now, I must admit that I have wondered a bit what is the reason for your tendency to go after the man instead of the ball in this case, and I think you answered yourself in your last post. You were personally insulted because I dared to state I feel the CSM lacks vision. I can live with that. But I really dont think we are going to agree no matter how much we discuss. So lets just agree to disagree.

Nobody can deny that you have done a great deal for the EVE-community Tea. I have known you for the better part of 2 years and consider you a friend. However, sometimes you need to remember that the Good Lord has given you TWO ears but only ONE mouth for a reason.

Dear Tea, you are a bitter old vet and your contributions are purely negative. Too bad you’re going but it’s a price worth paying for the awesomeness to come.

I’m out. Wait, no, I’m in. No, I’m out. Why you so mad bro? I don’t like your debating technique. I consider you a friend, that’s why when you make a classy and well-reasoned announcement why you’re quitting a game I come in here and talk to you like you’re a snivelling retard.

Tea has too much class so I’ll say it for him. Fuck you, Laurentius. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Learn to spell. Get some class. Buy a clue (or maybe your Good Lord will give you one for free.)

Tea, I’m sorry you’re quitting. You and Mynxee did everything you could and every non-casual EVE player owes you a huge debt. I am livid that Incarna won’t be optional (I play Internet spaceships and I like it that way, tyvm, there are lots of avatar games to choose from if I were so inclined) and if I didn’t have a year on all my accounts … well, we’ll see things are when my time runs out. CCP is contemptible.

Fly safe, mate.

That a lot of hate bro. I think you have to work on your anger management a bit, but it will probably be easier once u are finished with puberty.

Might try taking your own advice, “bro”. I don’t hate you. I don’t know you. I vaguely recall that you showed up near the top of a lot of class km’s and before I read your initial diatribe here, you were “light blue”. But when I see you come in here and shit on a decent guy who’s worked his ass off to make this game better, for free, you get my attention.

I’ve read a lot of GBCW diaries in my day and nearly all of them made me cringe. This one didn’t. It was drama-free, emotion-free, very well written and left me thinking ‘Good on you, Tea.’ You came in here and shat all over it and all over your ‘friend’ (in his own blog, ffs) and then got butthurt when your incoherent and misleading trolling wasn’t well received.

If you were drunk, fine, have you sobered up yet? If not, then gtfo, you’re an arrogant little bitch who thinks (“knows”) that CCP can (“will”) master calculus when they’ve just managed (after 8 years) to figure out addition and are now struggling miserably with long division.

Well then I might reccomend you to take your own advice too. If EVE really is so bad, I recommend you get the fuck out of the game and leave it to “arrogant little bitches” like myself.

Tea tries to make it sound like the CSM function as a “sounding board” for CCP ideas is the only way to work and indeed has been the way CSM has always worked. This is utter bullshit and not FACT. The CSM was originally established as an oversight comitte that should hold CCP accountable on behalf of the playerbase in the aftermath of the T-20 scandal. Since then it has evolved, party by CCP initiative, partly by CSM internal or even player initiatives. There is NOTHING in the current working of things that would stop the CSM from doing a Incarna survey from the playerbase, even if the NDA forbids it to put forward explicit game mechanics proposed by CCP. The CSM would just have to work bottom up instead of top down. But the THRUTH is, that no initative has been taken, becasue the CSM does NOT want Incarna. They want to fix existing gameplay. A position which is fine in itself, but on collisioncourse with CCP strategy. That is why the CSM lacks vision.

Incarna is going to come anyway, and it will put a framework in place that over time will change EVE forever. You dont need a strategy document to understand that the introduction of full body avatars and more non-violent gameplay is going to attract new types of players to EVE Online. You dont need a strategy document to understand that when combined with Dust 514, there will be a huge potential to expand the current playerbase in the EVE universe. Incarna isnt planetary interaction, which only added a proffesion. Incarna changes the way players interact with the game and eachother, and the idea that it should be “optional” is in direct contradiction to the vision for the game as the “ultimate sci-fi simulator”. Now a lot of “bitter old vets” resent this idea. They want to keep EVE as it is. But, thruth to be told, there is nothing CCP could do to appease the current generation of veterans. Haters gonna hate, no matter what you do. Things have gone too far for these people to once again be content with EVE. So, if you where the CEO of a big gaming company whith this problem, what do you do? Well, you follow your vision, you attract new players – and money – to the game, you expand it and you say goodbye to a generation of bitter old vets on the way.

Okay, after this I’m out. Sorry for derailing your thread, Tea.

Let’s tackle Major’s latest rambling nonsense point-by-point, shall we?

1. EVE isn’t ‘so bad’. It’s just headed in the wrong direction.
2. I don’t care about the history of the CSM. Before this CSM it’s been pretty much useless. This CSM has been the most effective ever. Going from Cheerleading Lapdog to Only Adult in the Room no doubt required some adjustments in the job description.
3. Your THRUTH is not my THRUTH. If there has been a proposal that received more +1’s than the Focus on Excellence proposal, please direct me to it. This isn’t about the CSM ignoring the player-base and espousing their own views. This is about CCP ignoring the player-base and breaking the game, slowly but surely. That’s why they’re moving forums to EVE-gate. That’s why Incarna is not optional. Because CCP’s vision is shite so they MAKE you eat it because they know you wouldn’t otherwise because it sucks.
4. Your notion that disagreeing with CCP ‘strategy’ shows that CSM ‘lacks vision’ is laughable. CCP is a drunken driver. CSM asked for the keys. Declined. Tea’s taking a cab home. Good for him.
5. Microtransactions that affected gameplay were ‘going to come anyway’ until this CSM stopped it. Stupid ideas don’t magically become good ideas because the idiot who concocted the stupid idea is adamant about it.
6. Every bugfix/patch ‘changes EVE forever’. So?
7. I don’t care about the initial vision of ‘ultimate sci-fi simulator’. EVE has been about Internet Spaceships for 8 years. Changing it now is stupid. Changing it and not making ‘classic’ gameplay optional (when that is cost-free and would retain existing customers while still attracting the new ones you are convinced would flood in) is INSANE.
8. I’m sure many CCP employees share your defeatist attitude. Makes a great rationalization for doing a piss-poor job of developing a video game, no doubt.

Since you asked: If I were the CEO of a big gaming company with this problem, I’d hire a team to fix the bugs in EVE and then I’d announce ‘EVE is a finished product. It is the greatest Internet Spaceships game of all time. Enjoy.’ Then I’d launch ‘Barbie and GI Laurentius explore Constellation MT’ and let you and the rest of the guys who like to play with dolls pay $ for haircuts and cyber with each other’s toons to your hearts content.

If I thought CCP’s ‘strategy’ (which seems to consist of hiring a bunch of incompetent programmers and letting them do whatever they think is ‘awesome’) was going to maximize their profits, I’d still be a tad peeved, but I’d accept their choice as rational. But CCP is driving EVE off a cliff, taking their own bottom line with it, and I’ve got 2+ years of car payments invested in this thing.

Anyway, this has all been answered better by Tea. I replied to you because you were out of line, not because you’re barely intelligible. Peace out.

I applaud your “tackle”. Well done. You seem to be one of those rare individuals that actually subtracts from the sum of human knowledge when you open your mouth.

So in sum… you think CCP is “drunken driver” consisting of “idiots with stupid ideas” which “do a piss poor job of developing a video game” by “hiring a bunch of incompetent programmers and letting them do whatever they think is ‘awesome’ and thus “driving EVE off a cliff”.

Right.

But you still think they should cater for you? You were pretty spoiled as a child werent you?

I have some news. CCP is not destroying THE game. They are certainly not destroying MY game. I’m not even sure they are destroying YOUR game, but of that I cannot be certain. I’m not sure what your playstyle is, but mine has been mostly PVP for 3 years. But you see, Jonathan Ferguson, you are a hater. And haters gonna hate, no matter what CCP does. Thats the thing. You are a lost cause.

Well, I can only say one thing, IT’S A GAME. Too much, far too much. I’m always sorry to see veteran players leave, bitter or not, lol. But each to their own…. Enjoy whatever you replace Eve with Tea, and hope all goes well for you. Come back and visit later, you might be surprised how things turn out.